November 16, 2016 - 6:45am
Eric Kayser Starter
Hi from Stonehenge in the UK
Just joined up as the breadmaking is becoming serious. Well you know what I mean. I bought the Larousse book of Bread at the weekend and decided I would make the starter. Followed the instructions but after day 1 the starter has developed a crust but it is moist underneath. Ok to carry on with this or should I start again. I have mixed it into day 2 addition anyway and will keep an eye on it but wondering if this is normal? Room temp was about 16 - 23 deg over day and night. In a bowl and covered with a cloth.
cheers
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Hi from London.
Welcome on board.
By any chance are you using filtered water? I found a glass jar or a Tupperware container with a screw tap loosely fitted worked best for a 100% hydration starter when I was making mine.
Thank you. No. Just using a deep china bowl at the moment and then was going to move it into a jar like M. Kayser suggests. Going out to buy a Kilner or two later.
Is very good. You loosen it a bit and it keeps it covered and secure. Bugs can't get in but gas (from the starter) can escape. And it also keeps it from drying out as it retains moisture. Perhaps just a cloth can be too aerated drying it out forming a skin. If it does form a skin then no problem. Take the skin off and feed the gooey mixture underneath and all should be fine.
is what you need.
However... that stuff under the crust - don't throw it, just put it in a new jar and keep going. You might get away with cling film over your current bowl though.
I use kilner jars for my starters - and keep the lid on with the rubber sealing ring. They don't explode.
-Gordon
(in Devon)
A cloth will just give you the problem you have with a crust. Crust belongs on bread not starters:-) Starters don't need to breathe and they get started by wee beasties falling out of the air either - at least not in your bowl.
Pray to the Druids for a favorable outcome or at least make the appropriate sacrifice and offerings :-)
Happy starter making
for your welcome. Also for the advice. I might just make another starter in case in the new Kilner jar. I'll let you know how I get on though with a picture or two. Given up praying to Druids as they eat all your bread whilst you have your eyes shut.
bad, but stealing your bread while tryong to be nice to them is beyond the pale.
worst of the lot...bloody druids..always complaining about the price of cauldrons and golden sickles.
How important is a constant temperature for a starter at birth and maintaining?
When making one from scratch warmth will mean the difference between one week or two.
However when fully viable they do respond more easily in less warm temperatures.
Warmth speeds things up and obviously cold slow things down. This plays a major part in flavour, and time, manipulation.
In order to not be a slave to your starter you can keep it in the fridge (where it will hibernate) and you either take some off to feed and use or take it out, feed and use. All depends on how often you bake and how you wish to maintain it to work for you!
whole grains and good water at 100% hydration. 76-78 F is pretty good. Lower and the starter will take much longer to get going.
Druids are evil.
witch starter? I seem to remember you mentioning this as another type of preferment.
Just bought the book as I've never really attacked bread properly...I've baked and be damned.But this time I'm doing it by the book to start with and then develop my own ideas. Kayser proposes :
Rye flour and honey and water at 30 deg c
day 1 20g Flour 20g water 5g Honey
day 2 40g flour 40g water 5g honey blend in mix from day 1
Day 3 80g flour 80g water blend in mix form day 2
day 4 blend in 100g Strong flour 100g water at which time the starter is ready to use
He suggests covering a bowl with a cloth but that made my day 1 go crusty and on day 2 the same thing happened again. So I started again and this time clingfilmed the bowl and this didnt dry out after day 1
As long as you keep it nice and warm you should be well on your way to having a viable starter. By day 4 it could very well be used but remember that conditions have to be just perfect for that. Don't worry if it takes a tad longer. See Mini's comment just below. If it does take longer and you keep up these feeds then soon you'll be building enough starter to fill a swimming pool. You might have to begin discarding some and topping back up. However we'll cross that bridge if/when you come to it. When starters are young they are temperamental. You might find it slow down after an initial bubbling up. Do not fall into the trap of overfeeding it at this stage just stir, keep warm and feed when it comes back to life.
In the meantime warmth is the key! Should your starter not perform exactly how described don't rush into doing anything before getting advice. Keep calm and carry on.
Best of luck!
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/44386/lucy%E2%80%99s-witch-yeast-fig-and-pistachio-ancient-grain-bread
...I can almost smell it....Mmmm..better get some breakfast now. If I can ever bake something half as good as that I'll be very pleased
couldnlt have been Witch Yeast but the modern day versions should be using i!. You will be making breads better than that one before you know it. It just takes some time, expperience and learning the various bread making methods - getting a good apprentice also helps:-)
Use a heating pad if you have one to keep the culture nice and warm. Or put a cup of boiling water in a small cooler with the cultire to keep it warm or do the same thing in a micrpowave, just remmenr to take the culture out when you reheat the water in the MW.
Happy baking
I just add a little water to soften and switch to cling film or a plastic bag & rubber band. These folks who write books have an advantage. Once there has been sourdough growing in their kitchens, it is much easier to start up SD starters. I would be very interested in that cloth that he puts over his starter, probably full of bacteria and yeasty beasties. The cloth inoculating the starter tends to shorten the process. Same thing in Bakeries and Baking Schools that handle sourdoughs. At home it can take a little bit longer for that first good starter to get going so patience is key.
all for your comments.
Mini....explain this cloth thing please?When you say you would be interested in the cloth because it would be good or bad? Tending to shorten the process which is good from a time perspective or bad because flavours dont develop?
cheers
will more than likely be faster forming in 4 days than yours because you wrote: "He suggests covering a bowl with a cloth." Namely his cloth. Not any cloth, but the one he uses in his kitchen. Cloths tend to get reused over and over again in baking and the one he used to get a starter in 4 days probably inoculated the flour & water mixture below it thus speeding up the process for him to publish that he can raise a starter for baking in 4 days.
I don't think your starter will be ready to raise bread in 4 days so be patient, If nothing is happening on day four, stop feeding the starter and just wait, stirring occasionally, keeping it 24°C (or slightly warmer) and covered for at least another day or two. As suggested, reduce the amount before feeding or the starter will get to be too big. Do not save the discard unless you want to see what it does if no flour is added. You can then race the two and make the waiting more interesting.
..thank you...is your kitchen 24 deg all the time? My room is about 18-19 deg. Occasionally warmer....
You need it warmer! Airing cupboard, on top of fridge, wrap it in a towel, closer to a radiator. Get inventive! It'll make a difference of a few days to two weeks. You've started a starter in the UK wintertime. Not exactly good for a starter.
Lechem, You kicked me into a bit of due diligence. The kitchen is 22 deg at 10pm. The boiler room is 23 deg and my study is 22 deg. Readings taken with my kitchen temp probe. So when I took the temp earlier in my study I must have had the thermostat a bit lower than normal. Do starters cope with a dip in temperature overnight?
But I've made a few starters and later on realised how important warmth is. My first starter coped but took a long time. I would come home and first thing check my starter and nothing for quite a while. Eventually it came to life. It really tests your patience. But with warmth it really speeds things up. If things are just perfect it can be under a week. But a bit colder and it can be up to two weeks. After the initial bubbling up which is quite quick it often goes quiet. Perfectly normal. Just keep warm, stir and skip a feed or two until it wakes up. At night why not carefully wrap it in a towel? Keep in a cupboard? Making a starter is about patience. Enjoy the process! Exciting when it comes back to life after a little sleep (it's not hibernating as stuff is going on despite appearances). After which it goes from strength to strength. Go find your sweetheart a place for the night.
....This was why I had her in my study so we could be close and i could keep a watchful eye on her. More fatherly I guess than sweetheart. I think she will stay in the study in the early days with the themostat fixed at about 23/24. I might start a little sister that will be two days behind.
inside your vest pocket inside a big bulky sweater, She would love that. She really would. Otherwise... off to the boiler room or somewhere near the stereo equipment (in a bowl.) 26°C would be lovely but in your pocket, she's cozy. :)
24°C in my kitchen? In Laos, yes. In Austria (right now 21°C with the chimney radiation and the sun shining (finally.)
Mini
With me in my office... Versions 1 and 2
The first day and second day of these starters were High teens and low 20's....
??
I wanted them to have the best possible start. I guess it's a bit like brewing with the lag phase of fermentation..lower temperature will still get to where you want to get it to..just slower in the early days unitil it really kicks in?
You are following a recipe which gives an exact timetable. Problem is when making starter one can't give an exact recipe nor timetable. It's a living thing. You aren't going to get an inferior starter just because it wasn't at the optimal temperature at the beginning. Starters take time and nurturing. Trick is knowing when to feed, keeping it warm and patience.
If I were you I'd stop feeding and just stir every 12 hours. Let's get it to the stage of the first bubbling up and then feed again. After which you wait until signs of life and feed again. You'll find that your starter will start off slow and get stronger with your feeds becoming more often. Once it is predictable, strong and bubbles up on cue it is ready.
Has it shown any signs of life yet?
....this picture is day three before the feed
If you have built up a decent amount then wait. skip a feed or two and just stir.
If you haven't then feed again and then wait.
coffee grounds. sort of. Ah so you're acquainted with brewing! (you are a druid!) This this should be easy waiting for that right aroma from fermenting. I say double bag and drop her into your vest pocket and squish now and then and burp her so she doesn't split her seems.
Stonehenge always looked like stacked bread loaves & baguettes to me. I think the druids came along afterwards and changed the bread monuments into something else. The "after life" was never the same after that. Wonder where the ovens are hidden....
I read your comment without taking in who wrote it. Thought it was from dabronwman! Probably the druid thing.
I've just fed both starters, going to keep them at 26 degrees and see where we are in 24-48 hours. I've waited all these years to start sourdough creating...can wait a few days more.... :-) Your plan is on the list of possibles though! Lots of reading to do anyway as I just bought Emily Buehlers Bread Science book and also remebered that we had the Bread Apprentice book tucked away somewhere. Tea, Victoria sponge. log fire, dogs (not hot dogs for our american friends) and books. Have to like that!
That moment when you see your first bubbles :-) Actually that should read 'our' first bubbles. Thank you to all of you.
I think the Kilner jar I was going to move her into might not be big enough. Is there a rule of thumb on working out jar size? So far that is 140g flour rye and 140g water. Feed with 100g strong white today and 100g water so 500g total. M. Kayser says refresh at 3 day intervals by adding 50% of weight in flour and water. Interestingly he doesn't say whether that's rye or Strong flour or a mix? Personal taste I guess on what you will be baking but I was just trying to do it by the book this time.
Great feeling isn't it!
I would approach the feeding slightly differently but there is no one way and too much advice can be confusing. Follow the recipe you've got. You're back on track for your feeding schedule and carry on.
When you bake you always keep some back as the starter for the next bake so you don't have to go through the same rigmarole every time.
There are many ways of maintaining your starter and using it, as you'll see on this site, and once your starter is made you'll find one that suits you best. Cross that bridge when you come to it.
You don't have to stick to one type of bread just because you've got one type of starter. You can build other starters from this one (these are called preferments). You just take some off and build with different types of flour.
Don't forget that after this initial bubbling up it is very normal for things to go quiet. Do not panic and just go back to the plan of "waiting" till you see activity. Then carry on. Once your starter is strong and predictable you bake with it.
P.s. that's an awful lot of starter. Eventually just keep a little in the fridge and take some off to build with and use. When it runs low you top the mother starter. You'll need to have a plan once you're ready.
on where we are.....going ok i think....240g flour and 240g water 15g honey...nothing 'violent' happening like with Reinhart's pineapple starter.
Or is this the same one from different angles? And at what stages are both of them?
Looks very good to me. Did you experience a slowing down after the initial bubbling up? What does it smell like?
You're going to wish to discard some soon because you're building way too much. Carry on these feedings for much longer and you'll be swamped.
....why does it do that? ! Pictures of same starter today on Day 5. Apart from what I've added it hasn't gained any weight. Should it have? Smells sour Smells great. No slowing down just linear growth to this point. Steady.
I will try and bake with it later and then feed it again.
Going to make a Boule:
500g Stoates Strong White
350g water at 20c
100g starter
2g Fresh yeast
10g salt
Mix and knead 10 min
First rising 90 mins
Proof 120 mins
Oven on hour before at 230c to heat up Baking stone. Just before baking 15 sprays with water bottle in the oven
Bake 40-45 mins
Should look like this!
Is the water and flour you add. It's not going to increase on its own.
To really test your starter you should be leaving out the added yeast. How will you know if its performing well or not?
How can first rise be shorter than the final proof?
Your starter looks good and smells good. When it has peaked take a little off and gently drop it into a glass of water. If it floats that's a very good indicator it's good to proceed.
The weight question was prompted by seeing other posters starters doubling in size. :-)
Just following the Larousse recipe with the 2g fresh yeast. A lot of M. Kaysers recipes follow that route. But i'm not experienced enough to know different. I'll try and it and post pics later.I gave it a stir when I posted pictures earlier and it's put on a cm. Going to bake in a couple of hours.
Here is the procedure...
Feed it and wait for it to peak. Once it has bubbled up and peaked (i.e. really active) take some off and use in a recipe. Try the float test first.
Find a dedicated, bakers' yeast free, simple sourdough recipe and try your best at following it.
Final proofing should be shorter than the bulk ferment (usually and providing there's no refrigeration)
If you can't find anything that catches your eye then i'll give you one.
What do you have by way of baking equipment you wish to use?
actually lose weight - at least mine do/ CO2 is outgassed and that weoght is lost when it breaks the surface. Plus there is some evaporation of the water in the levain.
....I'll make two loaves! If you can find me a recipe as well then please? Much appreciated. Equipment wise I have a thick metal baking stone, a lame, a banneton (unlined), cloths, spray bottle, very good hand x2, Anything else I need?
i'll email you a recipe
...pictures will follow of the result.
Here: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/44111/easy-sourdough-part-1
That'll make one large loaf, or 2 smaller ones.
-Gordon
..I will make this one after lechem's....as an aside your recipe is for Buckfastleigh Sourdough which is where my father went to school.
Ah, excellent! I didn't go to school here, but far far away... Well, Scotland, however I live and bake in Buckfastleigh now :-)
-Gordon
The dough was quite wet and sticky when I mixed it last night. Kneaded for about ten minutes. I was worried that it wasnt going to keep it's shape. So I left it to mature overnight and then knocked it back and gave it two hours to rise in a banneton.
I'll wait for it to cool before having a look inside.
First of all your loaves look very good and are nicely risen. The crumb shot and taste report will tell us the rest.
Some observations...
1. At 73% hydration for an all bread flour dough it will be sticky! I'm impressed that you managed so well. I'd think twice about such high hydration for an all bread flour dough.
2. With 20% starter AND 2g yeast I think an all night bulk ferment was a bit much. You need to watch that timing because it can very easily break down the gluten.
3. Steam! It looks like your bread crusted over too quick, before the oven spring was over, so it blew out through the sides. Steam will prevent this from happening.
A lovely loaf and I await further report.