French Flour
I am a complete novice at baking and cooking, in general. My 5-yo daughter has significant problems (stomach aches, diarrhea, etc.) with many foods, including all US wheat products. However, like many others, we noticed that she could eat baguettes in France, Switzerland, and Italy all day long and suffer no problems. Full disclosure: If I did not see it with my own eyes, I would not believe this.
Anyhow, as a result of this, I have turned into a (horrible) amateur baker with French flours. Lots of questions:
- The only place I can find French flour (grown and milled in France) or Italian flour available in the U.S. is L'Epicerie. Are there any other sources available of continental European wheats? To be clear, I do not want North American wheat milled in Europe.
- I have baked baguettes somewhat successfully (remember, in my household, "success" simply means better than Udi's gluten free bread) with L'Epicerie Pastry T55 flour. L'Epicerie customer service insists that the Pastry T55 flour has a HIGHER protein/gluten content than their Traditional T55 flour. 14% versus 10%. This seems to contradict every U.S. website I have read where pastry flour has a LOWER protein/gluten content than all-purpose or bread flour. Is it possible that things are switched for French flour? The customer service rep 100% insists that he is correct and has even insulted those that suggest otherwise. And he is very knowledgeable otherwise.
- There was a 2011 thread here that discussed starting a buying club for French flour. Does that still exist? Did that work well? Do any bakers or restaurants use European wheat? In other words, do wholesale buyers have a way to get European wheat that retail buyers do not?
Thanks
I have lots more questions
I've never seen French or German flours available, but there's plenty of Italian ones. For example, even my local Walmart stocks Caputo. There's also a ton of Russian and Polish flours in our local international stores, as well as some even less common, like Greek and Lithuanian. Depends on your locale, I guess,
I live in Salt Lake City area and have not been able to find International stores that sell European flours. I travel to NYC and LA and have been meaning to check out stores there. Of course, I do not want to fly back with flour in my suitcase. Seems like a good way to end up in prison for a day or two.
I've brought flour from overseas multiple times with no issues whatsoever.
I would be worried they would think explosive material or biological substance. I think some of the fake anthrax turned out to be flour and/or talc. But either way, I can just buy a box and ship that way.
Is there a reason you don't want to order from them?
hester
I have had success with L'Epicerie flour in my limited use. No complaints but would like to "diversify" my sources.
And of course, I would not mind finding a less expensive source. Including shipping, I am paying almost $3 per pound.
I notice that Anson Mills claims to sell flour grown from true French wheat (but grown in the US), but they are charging more than $7 per pound so I have not even tried it.
And I have noticed that L'Epicerie is frequently out of flour (e.g., they have been out of T65 -- both organic and non-organic -- for a month). And they have told me they may be forced to dis-continue selling T55 flour.
I was intending to try the available Italian flours, but one concern is whether these are true Italian flours or simply Italian-style flours or Italian-milled (but North American grown) flours. For example, King Arthur sells a French-style flour (made from North American wheat) and my daughter cannot tolerate it.
I have read several online blogs stating that a good portion of European flour is made from North American wheat. I have no idea how true this is.
You are going to have to pay a premium for Imported flour grown elsewhere and shipped here. I have a child w a serious gastrointestinal illness so I understand your concerns. Probably different from your daughter's illness.
Have you tried organic flours from other vendors? Heartland Mill, Guistos? I'm wondering why it has to be European flour? B/c she ate baguettes in Europe w no problem?
I have tried a variety of North American flours -- both organic and not -- and she could not tolerate any of them. I tried these flours rather scattershot (e.g., what was available at Whole Foods) so I could be wrong that there are North American organic flours that she can tolerate. It sounds like I should start with Heartland Mill.
See my other comment because my daughter has multiple food sensitivities and for about 9 months we were having tremendous problems getting her to absorb enough calories (she actually lost weight between her 4th and 5th birthdays and she was fairly skinny at 4). But the doctors, who were alarmed at this "failure to thrive", offered very little help in practical solutions. She was tested for the serious gastro conditions and tested negative.
We stripped out all processed foods and basically fed her nothing but chicken breasts, rice, and peas for two weeks to reset her clearly upset system. We now have found a varied diet that she tolerates. And finally, at age 5.5, she surpassed her previous high weight (set 16 months previous when she was 2 inches shorter!).
And it has been helpful to add wheat bread back to her diet as another food she can tolerate.
... How about this. Get a local unbleached organic flour, and make up some simple bread, but use a long ferment method. So - my usual one would be 550g white flour, 350g water, 9g salt and just 1.8g dried yeast. Mix this, leave it 45 minutes, then give it a quick knead then leave it overnight in a coolish place - say 18°C. In the morning knock it back, shape it into a log and put it in a tin - it should rise in 1-2 hours, then into a hot oven for 30-40 minutes.
It sounds like a simple wheat intolerance - hopefully it is no more than that - I've found that some of my local customers are just fine with long ferment breads - why is typical of a French baguette...
-Gordon
i agree. do a long fermentation.
I have never heard of this idea so thank you. I am going to try this idea.
I am not sure if this changes your view, but I did not long ferment the French flour baguettes that I have made thus far, and my daughter has eaten them without issue.
I have been using a very simple recipe (I am not a good baker): 4 cups of flour; 1.5 cups of water; 2 tsps of sea salt; 3/4 tsp of yeast (and I bought the imported French yeast just in case this was part of problem). I knead for 100+ slap-and-folds; I let rise for about 2 hours. Punch. Cut into quarters. roll into long cylinders; bake at 450 for 20 minutes.
My daughter clearly does not have full-blown Celiac's Disease (as you note). And to be frank, I have no idea why she cannot handle North American wheat but can handle European wheat. The lower gluten content cannot be the reason. And you must understand how cynical I was of the European-wheat-is-different argument before I saw the results. If she eats even a single roll of high-quality US bread, she will be doubled-over in pain within a half hour and get diarrhea. I am so cynical I thought it was psycho-somatic (goodbye father of the year award)! And my wife had read about similar people who can tolerate European bread and pasta. And you gotta understand that I thought this was complete BS -- a way for my wife to get to visit Europe more often (goodbye husband of the year award). But I saw her eat bread in Europe -- small bits at first but then a quarter of a baguette three times a day -- for 3 weeks without any issues. None. We return to the U.S. and had same problems with US wheat products. I do not understand why, but I cannot argue with the results.
I should note that she also has problems with dairy products (clearly, lots of food sensitivities) and that she can also tolerate European milk, cheese, and ice cream better. It is not as night-and-day with dairy products (as it is with bread), but there is no doubt she can handle European dairy products better than US dairy products.
Have you tried Einkorn? I've purchased mine directly from Jovial, and then have managed to find Jovial in Whole Foods. I've not tried the Einkorn in the first link.
http://www.einkorn.com/einkorn-history/
https://jovialfoods.com/einkorn/
This is very helpful, and I was not aware of Einkorn. Your advice is along the line of hreik's comment to try some small-mill organic flours. I mentioned that I did try some unsuccessfully but I did not try Einkorn. I will try it.
could be yeast risen rather than sourdough. Baguettes are made with low protein flour about 10% and that is what cheapo grocery store flour is too. Some people can tolerate SD low protein breads made with SD just fine but when made without Sourdough they can't. Poor thing needs some kind of good bread to grow up healthy and strong.
I would try baguettes made with sourdough and low protein grocery flour. It might be just the ticket and remind her of the bread she had in France and liked.
She has had high-quality, organic sourdough U.S. products from commercial bakers (i.e. not me), and those caused same problems as non-sourdough breads. I have not attempted sourdough myself, either with French flour or North American flour.
low protein flour like store AP and the what is used in baguettes. Sourdough is like predigesting the bread but another even better thing is to use sprouted grains which is also another way of pre-digesting bread. I make a lot of sprouted SD bread and these are both things to look very closely at if you want to use low price low protein flour from the US instead of expensive French flour.
I tried Alvarado Street Sprouted Organic Sourdough (and another brand that I cannot recall) without success.
There are countless permutations of all these factors and it is possible I missed the ideal permutation, but I suspect that sourdough is not going to solve my daughter's problem. But in fairness, I have not tried to make sourdough myself.
That's sourfaux as defined by the real bread campaign: https://www.sustainweb.org/news/sep15_say_no_to_sourfaux/
In the UK st least, because there is no legal definition of the word "sourdough" (and it's not really a UK word in the first place), there are big commercial bakeries adding "sourdough flavouring" or powder into a standard mass-produced loaf that's still full of all the other ingredients and non-listed ingredients (the processing aids that don't legally need to be listed). So see if you can find out how long the fermentation is - sadly I suspect you'll never find this out from the big commercial bakeries, so see if there are some small independent bakeries near you.
See e.g. this stuff: http://www.britishbakels.co.uk/news.cfm?content_id=1851
Once you go down this rabbit hole, you'll see just how badly bread can be - or from the other point if view just how good and easy it can be made... "Artisan Sourdough" in one hour... This is why I've said before that we (in the UK) have lost meaning to the word "Artisan" )-:
-Gordon
http://aulevain.canalblog.com/archives/2008/08/21/10304760.html
https://www.weekendbakery.com/posts/understanding-flour-types/
hester
I use their t55 and t65 all the time. Shipping is a bit on the high side but its incredible flour and hands down the best you can find for baguettes. It glutenizes so fast and ends up so silky smooth its incredible. A couple of weeks ago I ran low and added 1/6 central milling t70 from Utah. Instantly that small amount increased the final mix from 2-3 minutes to 5+ minutes and the quality seemed as though I added 50% American flour. The guy phillippe at lepicerie is great and cost ends up about The same pound for pound as KA organic flours. Not sure of there is anywhere else you can find French flour and don't even think about KA French style flour its a gimmick !
Hello,
My name is Philippe from L'Epicerie: www.lepicerie.com
I got phone calls from customers asking why our T55 Pastry is high in gluten (around 13%) when a pastry flour is usually low (around 9%). Our T55 Pastry is called "T55 Patissiere" by the French miller Moulin d'Auguste. It is made for croissant and all pastries or "Viennoiseries" where a mix containing eggs, sugar, and any additional ingredients, add "weight" to it, not allowing a regular flour (around 10% gluten) to rise correctly. A dough or mix made with a higher gluten content will still rise and create these strong "air pockets" needed, even with the additional ingredients added. On the other hand a T45 usually referred as a "Cake" flour (and the whiter flour available, meaning no bran left in it) with a lower gluten content will create a lighter mix with less elasticity. I can understand to be a bit confusing at first... since a cake is also a pastry ;)
Think of gluten as elasticity in bubble gums. When I was a teenager at my grand mother house in Normandy we used to go in the wheat fields after the harvest. Picking the wheat stems left in the field, we would chew the wheat germs and after a couple of minutes having a really tasty chewing gum in our mouth.
Our miller in France Moulin d'Auguste does not make a T45 flour but we are importing from Canada an Organic Orford flour with a French equivalent of T45, but is not a French flour.
How funny I just tonight went online to see if you still carrying your T65 - my favorite flour ever. I've ordered 100s of pounds to los angeles. I just wanted to drop in and remark that the first first time i ever heard anyone else making chewing gum from wheat. Having grown up in australia we used to spend time in the wheat belt on a farm and did the same thing. It's not the tastiest chewing gun but sure is a fun for kids licking around on a farm. Glad you're still supplying the best flour available in usa. Will order soon. Regards, Geremy