The Fresh Loaf

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Soft puddle of dough...

KayDee1's picture
KayDee1

Soft puddle of dough...

I've removed my sourdough "puddle of dough" from the refrigerator. It proofed on the counter yesterday for a solid 9 hours and seemed to be doing well, although was very, very soft. When I went to divide and shape it, the dough had to actually be peeled from the linen (floured) towels that were lining the bread rising basket. I turned it out onto a lightly floured surface and coaxed it into a round puddle through use of a dough scraper... placed it on parchment in a DO and into the refrigerator.

This morning, it still has a lovely yeasty aroma, and may have risen a tiny bit in the refrigerator overnight.

Finally, getting to my real question. I am tempted to work more flour into the dough? It is truly a sticky puddle with no structure or ability to form a true boule. Should I add more flour through a gentle fold and pull, or just "hope for the best" and transfer it to a heated DO and bake it? 

Thank you for any help you can provide. I'm very new at this! VERY new! 

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Recipe and method? 

The way how you describe it "a soft puddle of dough" leads me to think over fermentation. 

Maverick's picture
Maverick

Yeah, we need more detail. But 9 hours on the counter is already pushing the limits of fermentation. Then retarding it after that does not stop fermentation, just slows it down. Also, why are you putting the DO in the refrigerator? How old is your starter? What is the room temperature?

KayDee1's picture
KayDee1

I have two DOs. One I use to hold it in the refrigerator, and the other to preheat and then bake. 

I don't know how old the starter was when it was given to me by my local baker. I held it for a week, then brought it out of refrigeration (a portion of it) overnight, to use in making the bread.

Recipe. Ummmm... well, that's where things get messy. I used a combination of flour that I had on hand, and went from there. 

It fermented nicely, and very actively. I know it started to collapse in the the 9th hour. That's when I tried shaping it, and returned it to the refrigerator for overnight. 

Should I add more flour through stretch and fold, or just try baking it as is and see what happens? 

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

You made more starter! 

Try following a recipe when first starting off. Sourdough is a different animal to yeasted breads. 

What you could have done is added enough flour to make it into a dough again (but you'd also have alto add in more salt in the right percentage). Shaped and went straight into a final proof which wouldn't be as long. Then baked. 

But sounds to me as if you just dove into sourdough deep end.

Arjon's picture
Arjon

Also, what hydration is the starter? And did you factor the starter and water into the hydration of the dough? I ask because I'm aware of a couple of cases where people forgot to do the latter, which meant their dough was softer and looser than they expected because their expectations were set incorrectly. 

KayDee1's picture
KayDee1

The baker who gave me the starter said it was 65%, so I've kept it there. NO! I did NOT factor that into the overall formula. Thanks!!

 

KayDee1's picture
KayDee1

Well, after autolysing the flour with water, then adding the starter, then adding salt (with a little water) I did think I was making dough. 

So then? This puddle of dough is really a massive amount of starter (with salt)? So then, I can add more flour (and salt proportionately) to this "puddle of dough" and go from there? 

I REALLY appreciate your taking the time to discuss this with me. I'm all about learning by doing, and through mistakes, but if I don't know where I went wrong, I can't correct the mistake. 

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

But left it to ferment too long and the gluten structure broke down. So effectively it was just more 'starter' at this stage. 

It's all about timing. 

Better to find a simple sourdough recipe to work on. 

KayDee1's picture
KayDee1

Ah. I see... OK.

So, then? There is no "rescue" for this dough? 

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Would not make anything worth writing home about.

See Dannis post below. enjoy your waffles and/or pancakes. 

I'm on my phone and it's about to run out of juice. so sorry for this brief post. Find a recipe which has everything from starter build to fermentation and baking times. 

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

with some kind of parameters or you are simply reinventing the wheel. So long story short, you need to use a recipe as a start.

You also need to learn what to do with your starter which means that you usually need to feed it and get it active before using it to bake with. The simple way to do that is take some or all of your stater depending on how much you have and weigh it. Then add equal weights of water and flour, preferably a mixture of wholewheat and white. Then let it rise till it doubles. And do it again. 

When you have around 200 g or so, look up a simple 1-2-3 recipe on this site and make that. THis will get you started. 

As to your giant puddle of starter that you presently have, turn it into pancakes or waffles. Please look up a recipe for that too. 

 

KayDee1's picture
KayDee1

Quick question... with regard to, "take..your starter and weigh it...Then add equal weights of water and flour..." So, if the mother starter weights 100 grams I add 100 grams of flour and 100 grams of water, yes? 

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

I do that twice but I usually start with tiny amounts like 10 or 20 g. Then I do my final levain for my bread and the proportions for that are 1 part starter, 1 part whole grain flour (rye or wholewheat), 4 parts unbleached flour, and 4 parts water. That gives me an 80% hydration levain. This is what I have been doing lately. 

Prior to that, I continued with the 1:1:1 feedings and used that or occasionally, I did 1:2:2 (starter, flour, water). That gave me 100% hydration levain. 

As you can see, there are a million ways of doing this. Stick with one for a while then start experimenting. 

KayDee1's picture
KayDee1

Thank you! So, I took my mother starter weighed an amount, added equal amounts of flour (combination of ww and unbleached all purpose) and water. Let it work.  I didn't do it more than that though, so there's another problem detected with a solution.  Much appreciated! 

KayDee1's picture
KayDee1

I did what you describe in your first paragraphs. All was well until that 9th hour. I do believe the over fermenting is part of the problem.

I should better explain that I didn't just go blindly into the night, so to speak, but did use an approximation of a recipe. The weighed amounts of ingredients came from a recipe, but the processes (autolyse of just flour and water, for example) came from different recipes and techniques. So when I say I didn't use an actual recipe, I mean more that I used multiple recipes. Wow, I hope that made some sense! Sheesh.

Anyway, I'm going to carry on!

Thank you all for your helpful comments and sharing your expertise! 

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

you need help with timing. The major one I see is the bulk fermentation. Bulk ferment until the dough is doubled. Then shape and refrigerate for 10 to 12 hours. Bake directly out of the fridge. These are very rough parameters. 

It really is better for you to find a proper recipe and follow it to the letter for the first time so you know what things should look like and what to expect. 

KayDee1's picture
KayDee1

Yep, yep, yep! I knew when I saw that the dough had fallen, I was in trouble. Your general basic template is exactly what I need to incorporate into my understanding of how this process works. 

Thank you so much! 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

"When I went to divide and shape it, the dough had to actually be peeled from the linen (floured) towels that were lining the bread rising basket".

There are still tons of techniques I haven't seen before, but bulk proofing to the best of my knowledge is not done in a linen or basket.  It is always done in a bowl or tub or container of some kind.  Often with a light coating of oil in the receptacle so that the dough doesn't stick to it.  Only after the divide, pre-shape and shape does one place the dough into the linen or basket for final proofing.

Second, my recommendation is that once you have completed mixing, new flour (or liquid) is never added to the dough in an attempt to balance the content.

Agreed with the herd here about over proofing.  What is essential for beginners is to stick to the plan per the bread recipe's author and not try to wing it.  

Before there was a TFL or its kindred on the internet I tried, hopelessly, adding more flour to a post-mix.  Too dry?  Just add more water.  Too wet?  Add more flour.  And what I was left with was a shipwreck on the counter that remained there until my wife came home to view the desecration.  Then I rolled it into the rubbish bin.  My home baking was placed on hiatus for a decade.  Stick to plan until you "get it" and then by all means you should allow yourself to play with the process. 

KayDee1's picture
KayDee1

AHA! There is one step I didn't realize I had done wrong! I did have it in an oiled bowl (SS) but removed it to the linen lined bread basket for the long rise. Won't do that again!

Thanks for detecting that refinement of my process and understanding.

Oh, this is definitely a shipwreck, but I don't mind. I need to incorporate learning about sourdough, into my skill set of understanding dough, so making mistakes is kind of fun for me. Thank goodness, eh? Since, I have a tendency to make a many!

I'll return to reading carefully, "Bread" and continue the learning process. 

Thank you so much for sharing your expertise!