Tartine Troubleshooting - Final Rise
Hi guys!
I've been baking bread at home for a while. I've had hit or miss success with my Tartine Basic Country Loaf. (And the successes have always been when I have NOT proofed in the fridge, but this would really be most convenient for me!)
I follow the ratios and suggested times and get great results UNTIL the final proof. I usually try to do the final proof in the fridge, but I get little to no activity, despite getting to the 20-30% rise during bulk fermentation with no problem. Everything except the final rise seems to go pretty textbook. I measure everything carefully, my levain is strong and easily passes the float test, I bulk ferment at 80 degrees. I'm not sure why I get almost no activity on this final rise. Maybe I should just try to time things differently and let the final rise happen at room temp?
Do you think my fridge could just possibly be too cold? Do you think there's any way to salvage these two loaves I've had for the final proof in the fridge? ( I took a picture before I put bread to compare. Now, 9 hours later, there is almost no difference except for a slight amount of spreading. Certainly no rise.)
EDIT: Edited to include this photo of one of the loaves after baking straight from the fridge that didn't appear to rise during final rise http://imgur.com/a/aRpfN
Thanks so much!
Part of the recipe or do you prefer it?
If your dough is not ready when taken out of the fridge then continue at room temperature.
The book suggests a longer, cold ferment for a more complex flavor.
Also, after a four hour bulk ferment with turns, etc. etc. I'm usually a little pressed for time and don't feel like baking bread in the evening. Next morning or around lunch time would be ideal, which is why the long, cool ferment is so appealing.
So you think I could continue at room temperature and it would be okay? Wasn't sure if that would be okay or not after it had such a long, cold ferment.
It could very well need some further final proofing at room temperature if it isn't ready. One idea.
Another would be to wrap your banneton in a towel before placing in a plastic bag when retarding the fridge. See what happens.
You could akso try different shelves.
...and another idea would be not to refrigerate straight away and perhaps waiting 30 minutes before you do so. So it has bench time before retarding. Again you'll need trial and error to time this just right.
then just take it out and let it finish in the counter. It depends on the recipe. Most of the time mine over-proof in the fridge while I am sleeping and I cut the bulk counter ferment to zero to compensate.
A single rise straight into final proofing?
development using slap and folds and stretch and folds on 20 to 30 minute intervals after mixing. It is so hot here that it bulk ferments at the same time and I usually get 20% rise over that time too but I wouldn't even call it a single rise since it is much less than that.. So a pre-shape and a shape, in the basket and in the fridge it goes. Even with 10% pre-fermented flour the dough will usually over proof in the fridge if it let it go much over 15 hours. In the winter, I can get 18-20 hours.
If I let it bulk ferment on the counter for an hour it will over proof in the fridge after 12 hours. But, if it over proofs, you can just reshape it and let it proof again on the counter no worries. If I followed Tartine or Forkish The dough would never make it in the fridge in the summer - It would be goo.
You can develop that complex flavour by retarding the bulk ferment instead. Develop the dough and do the stretch and folds over 3 to 4 hours as usual, then put the dough in the fridge overnight. In the morning, shape it and let it do the final ferment at room temperature. You can more easily keep an eye on it that way as well so you bake it when it's 'ready'.
I'll give this a try soon. Do you let the dough reach room temperature once you take it out before you divide? I feel like a cold dough would behave very differently for dividing + bench rest + folding.
Thanks again!
last week. Mine was in the fridge for it's final rise for > 12 hours. I can upload a pic if you want of the final loaf. Just my 2 centimes: I did this to prove to myself I could but I won't do it again. It is unnecessarily fussy and tastes no better than the Norwich SD which is far simpler to make and friendlier to a busy schedule.
Good luck.
hester
Thank you for the response!
Maybe I just didn't wait enough... and yeah, it's very possible this bread just isn't worth the effort. Now it has almost become more of a pride thing that I want to get it right. :P
I find it remarkable how long Tartine recipes ferment vs. Hamelman. I'm still pretty new at this (since January), but my operating theory is that Tartine's approach has a greater risk of over-fermenting. There are many ways to successfully ferment and bake to suit your schedule (as Chad shows so beautifully). I recently looked on Tartine's website and see that they cold bulk ferment. Why, when the home baker is instructed to do so at 80F? I'm guessing in part because it fits their schedule best.
I also think that over/under-proofing and poor pre- and final shaping of Tartine recipes are more likely to cause bricking. As we all know, high hydration dough takes a long time to master (unless you're special, e.g., Ru007, Cedar Mountain), since you need to have magic hands to build and maintain the strength and structure of such warm, wet, sticky dough. This is why I'm so content with Hamelman. Things rarely go wrong, and if I want more hydration, I add it.
I'm a big proponent of cold final rises, which I do with any recipe that permits it, and I bake straight out of the fridge. I would assume that you are either under- or over-proofed (probably over-). As Dab says, think about a shorter bulk if over-proofing is the cause, and consider an only 8-hour cold rise. If the dough is excessively difficult to shape, that might be a sign that it is already over-proofed. Rye can really speed things up and make shaping that much more difficult.
If that doesn't help and you think you're under-proofed, I would do 30-60 minutes of warm post-shaping rise before moving to the fridge.
Thank you so much for your detailed reply.
I'll add Hamelman of my list of things to try shortly, but I feel like now I just *have* to redeem myself on the Tartine bread for some reason. (The first time it turned out so well and I wasn't as diligent as I am now with all the steps!)
I went ahead and baked up one of the breads this morning (trying to see if giving the other more time outside of the fridge will help). This is what it looked like: http://imgur.com/a/aRpfN Tastes okay, but dense and just meh. Not worth the calories to actually eat it.
I didn't really consider over-proofing, because I kept the bulk fermentation temperature right around 78-84, and by the end of the 4 hours with turns it had JUST REACHED the 20%ish percent increase in volume. I'm not really sure how much the bread should increase during the final rise and haven't seen many pictures of that, though.
Tonight I'll mix another batch of levain and let it go for 12 hours and start the bread process again the morning and try to do everything at room temperature without any fridge retardation. (The first time my bread turned out great - so maybe this is just the system I'll have to go with, even though it's not ideal for me timewise.)
I love your determination. Chad would chide you for not using young levain, but again, it needs to fit your schedule. The Titans of Baking will see your photo and help identify or narrow the scope of the problem. You might be right that it's under-proofed, of course, but over-proofing can cause poor expansion, since the gluten is stretched about as far as it can go. I'm interested to know how you felt about the dough after pre- and final shaping.
I have been using younger levain in these current breads. (6 hours, instead of 10-12 hours.) Still passes the float test easily, but still not seeing much rising. So maybe I should try older again. Or maybe I'll try both!
I thought the dough felt great after the turns and rest during the bulk fermentation. It felt softer and billowy, like the book suggests. The pre-shaped bread performed just as expected during the bench rest. It flattened out like the photos in the book, but still kept nice rolled edges. I thought my shaping was pretty good (I've watched a lot of videos!) and I was careful not to press out any gas but still keep things taut.
If you would've asked me how I thought it was going last night after the final shaping + setting them in the proofing baskets, I would've probably been cocky and told you I was super confident. What an ego blow this morning!
I am still letting the second dough proof at room temperature to see if that makes any difference or gives me any more rise.
How much do you think the dough should rise during the final rest? The book doesn't really give any clear guidance on that.
in the fridge. You did everything right. It's the dough not the time, as you know.
Thanks. I'll try out a few more things with the next few loaves and keep troubleshooting. The book says "up to 12 hours" for the cold rise in the fridge, so I figured surely at 12 hours I'd see SOMETHING, but I guess I should've just been more patient.
Bringing it up to room temp and waiting to see if that helps at all. We'll see!
I could be mistaken, but I think the 30% increase would apply to the final rise, just as with the bulk rise. After you figure all this out we will all be smarter for it. Thanks for sharing your experiences. Even some of my mostly unsuccessful Tartine attempts have made excellent toast.
Just started a half batch of the dough that I'll try to troubleshoot more things with. (Can't keep messing up TWO loaves every time I try this. Heartbreaking.) This time I'll take more pictures and log times very accurately.
You're doing what it takes to get great. What I loved so much about reading Tartine Bread was his description of how long it took him to achieve his desired results. It took him years--after having gone to cooking school, followed by working as a professional baker--to get there.
I'll keep working at it!
I have a few friends that are bakers - two of them here in SF and graduates from SFBI. I've been amazed at how terrible they are at baking good bread consistently without very precise temperature controls at their disposal. :P They never even bother with home baking!
I live in the east bay now, but I lived in SF for 18 years. I'm thinking about taking one of SFBI's week-long artisan bread classes. I got much better results once I bought the Brod & Taylor proofing box. Best $150 I ever spent. It's hard to get precise temperatures in an oven, and, according to an appliance repair person we hired, without very expensive professional equipment, it's hard to measure the accuracy of your oven thermostat within 25 degrees F.
I am actually in the east bay, too. (Saying SF is easier!)
I should look into a proofing box. I have a convection microwave that has a proofing mode, but it never seems to get quite warm enough and there's no real way to set it.
I'm in Alameda. Here's the one I use. Funny, they are now marketing it as a slow cooker, too. I only wish it was bigger. But the fact that it folds up was a big selling point.
http://brodandtaylor.com/folding-proofer-and-slow-cooker/
Maybe I'll look into getting one soon - it would definitely be nice to control temp reliably. I don't heat the house up too much, so it's often pretty cool. (This week especially!)
Alameda is beautiful. I am up in kooky Kensington.
I am using Chad's method as well and by my opinion don't look the watch, but look the dough. 20-30% increase in volume is fine but in your case I would either prolongate the bulk ferment for about 30 minutes to one hour to have more increase in volume or leave the dough on the bench after shaping for 30 minutes or one hour (as already proposed) and then retard. I could not see the pictures (I don't know why) so judging just by description is a little bit hard. In last hour or hour and half I don't do any stretch & fold so it is easy to judge the amount of rise.
My fridge is running at approx 8-9 dC and it takes at least 3 hours that dough cools down to about 10-11 dC. I put my dough in wooden banneton and wrap it in plastic bag. I constantly see that most of the rise is done within first two to three hours in the fridge and then the process really slows down so in the following 8 to 10 hours the dough raises as much as in first two to three hours. In my experience i found that some starters which are used to be very active at higher temp could become very lazy in the fridge and need substantially longer time for final proofing. So now I am ending my bulk ferment after having about 50-60% increase in volume and then I can bake within 8-10 hours straight from fridge. Maybe the dough is still slightly underproofed, but no so much that would have significant impact on the oven spring and bloom. With cold dough the finger test is probably not so reliable as with the dough at room temp.
Just my two cents!
Happy baking, Joze
Thank you for the reply!
I posted an update on how things were going in a new post today. I had success with my room temp loaf, but the one that is retarding in the fridge is still showing little to no activity. I'm thinking maybe my starter isn't hearty enough to thrive in the fridge or maybe my fridge is simply too cold. We'll see - it has only been in there for the bulk ferment about 12 hours, I'll keep checking on it!