Last Couple of Loaves didn't work out so well
I have been working my way through Ken Forkish's book for the last couple of months. I've probably completed 10-15 batches of bread at most so i'm still a novice.
Generally, I had been happy with my results but the last couple of batches did not work out so well and I'm hoping I can get some troubleshooting advice here.
I made the country blonde recipe last night:
- sourdough starter with no additional yeast
- 78% hydration
- used a local all purpose flour ("farmer ground", available in NYC) that is much darker than store bought
- roughly 50g of rye flour (out of 1000g)
- makes 2 boules
I made the dough last night and the final dough temp was a bit warm, 82F. The kitchen was probably 72F (a bit warmer than ken's, i would assume)
Here is my list of observations and potential problems:
The recipe calls for a 12-14 hours bulk fermentation and for volume to increase by 3x. After 9 hours, the dough was at least 4x volume.
When i took the dough out of the cambro, some of it tore and may have released a lot of gas
The dough was very sticky and difficult to handle. Is this how it should be or is it because it overfermented?
When shaping it did not hold shape very well at all
When i went to take the dough out of the baneton the loaf stuck to the baneton and tore badly. This happened to me during my last bake so i was very conscientious about covering the baneton with rice flour. Did the bread stick because the dough over-fermented?
The dough was really tough to move from the counter to the DO
The result is not so great, but edible.
Any thoughts on root causes would be great.
100% Levain?
That's what ken forkish calls it. I say 100% levain, because he has many recipes that are hybrids: some levain and some commercial yeast.
I was confused about the 100%
I'll take a look...
I'm thinking over fermented. 10 degrees is a lot and it did quadruple. The tearing was the result of gluten breakdown.
Haha, try searching on this site for "Country Blonde" and see how many other people have had serious issues with this bread! Myself, I have reduced the overall hydration to about 70% and find it much easier to deal with (and it still makes lovely open crumb). Also, shape it when it has tripled (or before), regardless of how long that takes. I think very few people that I've discussed this bread with find that the 12-14 hour bulk ferment works. The dough ends up very over-proofed. Don't let the final proof go too long either. If the flour you are using has more 'food' for the yeast, it will proof a lot quicker. Use the poke test and your own judgement to decide when to shape and when to bake it.
I agree completely. The Country Blonde turns in to goop for me if I follow the instruction as provided.
Thanks for the info. So when you say reduce overall hydration to 70% what do you mean ( somewhat new to this ) Also if 12-15 hours is too long - what do you suggest. So my dough after final mix and folds is about about 1.5 liters in volume using the Cambro 12 quart. It then rises overnight ( 10 hours this time ) to slightly under 5 liters. The dough is doming and producing huge bubbles. I used the dough at 10 hours. Shaped it - balls not as tight as they should be. Proofed it - watched carefully - lots of poke tests - none seemed over proofed. Poke tests revealed that it was ready to bake. First loaf was an improvement over previous attempts but rise could have been much better. Secon loaf on the right in picture was a disaster. As soon as I put it in the Dutch oven it collapsed. I must say - the flavors of the bread are incredible despite their sorry appearance.
So need suggestions.
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When I say reduce overall hydration to 70%, I mean that the total amount (grams) of water in the dough (starter water plus dough water), divided by the total amount of flour (starter flour plus dough flour) should be around .70 or 70%.
As for suggested time, I don't like to suggest a time. My climate is different than yours, and even in my house the temperature and humidity can change day to day. If your fermented dough is collapsing, or is full of huge holes, I think it's probably overproofed. If it collapses into a sticky puddle when you turn it out to shape, it's probably overproofed. Ditto if it collapses when you poke it. Try mixing the dough in the morning and keeping an eye on it through the day as it ferments. At this stage, the poke test should leave a dent but not de-gas the whole thing when it's ready. The dough should be strong, soft and stretchy but not too sticky when you pre-shape and shape it.
Keep at it; if the flavour is wonderful then you are more than halfway there!
I think I’ll start with mixing early in the morning and baking at night. Not good at math but will look at those percentages. thanks for all your help. The loaves you see above actually taste pretty good.
I did a better job baking the second loaf and while it looks ugly, the flavor is actually pretty damn good.
I'll give it another go and won't ferment it overnight.
Thanks for the feedback,
Josh
Best of luck and let us know how you fair.
- Abe
P.s. you were clear in your original comment. I didn't read it properly.
Assuming you do the mix and stretch and folds inside the receptacle, I fail to understand how the dough can wind up hotter than the ambient room temperature by a significant amount or even a single degree. All things being equal, unless the dough is creating its own heat engine it should not exceed the room temperature. I keep a relatively hot home kitchen at 78-80dF. I French Fold the dough pretty darn vigorously and it temps out to ~78dF. I never really temp the dough, but did just out of curiosity. And that is where it stays.
Anyway, regardless, if this is your home environment somehow exceeding the laws of nature, try using cold water. I don't mean tap cold, I mean refrigerator cold. If that isn't cold enough, add ice cubes and get the water down to just above freezing. That will slow down fermentation a bit. If that still isn't cold enough, put the flour in the freezer too.
At some point you may want to try lightly spraying an oil to coat the inside of the vessel so that the dough does not stick to it during stretch and folds or during removal. The dough really doesn't mind very much at all as the amount of oil that may adhere to the dough is minuscule, and you can then pat the dough with a cloth to remove the surface oil when you finally bench the dough for dividing and shaping.
Use wet hands when necessary for handling sticky dough, whether inside or outside of the receptacle. Use wet hands when necessary for handling not-so-sticky dough too. You will not change the hydration of the dough by doing this, but will change your ability for the better to handle the dough easily. Keep a dough scraper/bench knife at hand to help move the dough around and avoid adhering to surfaces as you shape.
There is plenty of talk on TFL about lining the banneton with rice flour to prevent sicking, but if you have gluten breakdown your are dealing with a goop of a different and difficult nature.
Good luck, review all of these varying contributors' inputs and see which seem to be your ticket. Do searches on TFL for evidence of other folks' successes and failures with your specific problems too. A little research and time invested can sometimes yield surprisingly effective results and new knowledge.
alan
The final dough temp was 82 because i used warm water per the recipe. The recipe calls for a findal dough temp of 75-78. I overshot by 4 dF.
The final dough temp was 82 because i used warm water per the recipe. The recipe calls for a final dough temp of 75-78. I overshot by 4 dF.
Appreciate you response.
and factor in how your starter behaves since it's not correct to assume all starters work similarly. When a recipe says X hours or Y increase in volume, go by the latter because the former can easily be based on different conditions from your actual situation - different room and ingredient temperatures, different starter type, condition and behavior, etc.