Help! Inactive Starter...
I recently tried a new starter with half all purpose flour and half rye .I've read really good things about a rye starter so I thought I'd give it a try. The first starter, the second day of feeding had the most rise I've ever seen in any of my starters! It was high, light, and bubbly! I was so excited. But then, it died down and became completely inactive for 2 weeks (despite my attempt to keep feeding it.) So I dumped that version because I thought maybe it got some bad bacteria or something in it. I started up another one again this week, and still completely no activity. It just is flat and still.
Any suggestions? Is it the temperature and environment (I live on the East Coast and we're in mid 60s)? Or maybe the rye flour? I'm really trying to get a consistent starter going so that I can bake every month, so any starter suggestions would be much loved!
A starter does go quiet after the initial bubbling up. After it has bubbled up the first time and you've fed it then you wait till it begins to show signs of life again. Instead you went into a feeding frenzy which was counterproductive and eventually you had discarded all the original starter taking you back to square one just leaving you with flour and water sans any yeasts or lab that was trying to take hold.
Start again! This time after you mix your initial slurry wait until it bubbles. Feed again and then wait, stirring every 12 hours until it shows signs of life again, then carry on with regular feeds making sure it shows signs of life before each feed. So your starter is dictating to you at this stage. Once it becomes predictable, bubbles up on cue and smells good then it is ready. From here on your starter works for you not vice versa.
When you start again replace the water with pineapple juice. Once you starter is established then swap the pineapple juice with water. This will speed things up and create a good environment for your starter.
Hi Lechem,
Thank you for your advice! Go figure the second one that I starter, I checked on it today and it has risen and there are bubbles! I actually forgot about it for a few days, and just left it there and now it's active.
So...I want to get the next steps right! Are you saying I should feed now? If so, equal portions of water and four? And should I discard any at all? I thought that's how it typically goes is that you discard about 80% before a feeding and then add in equal parts of water and flour for the feeding. And then I shouldn't feed again until I see more signs of life and activity correct?
Sounds as if your starter is waking up and the waiting is over. It should get stronger from here onwards if maintained correctly. We discard only because if one doesn't then you'll be building up a lot of starter. Feeds should be 1:1:1 or higher. So if we don't take some out it's gonna multiply quickly. Here's what to do...
Take off 2/3rds and place to one side (do not discard yet)
Top up with 1/3rd warm water and stir till the starter is fully distributed. Use the water to clean down the sides of the jar.
Then add 1/3rd flour and mix into a paste. Scrape down the sides and smooth the starter over with the back of the spoon.
This is all done by weight! So if you choose to keep 50g starter after the discard then feed 50g warm water + 50g flour.
Once all has gone without hitch then discard what you have taken off. This is good practice as you have a back up if there are any accidents such as spillage.
From here on feed when you see activity feed again but will be quicker now. Once your starter bubbles up on cue everytime it is fed and smells good then it's ready.
What can happen now your starter is alive and well, but very young, is it could take on an acrylic smell. This is normal. It just means it needs greater feeds or as I like to call it "feed it out". In this case you could do a 1:2:2 feed or even 1:3:3. Once the smell goes it is fine. But cross that bridge IF you come to it.
Include some wholegrain in your starter. Whole rye flour is good. But whole wheat will benefit your starter too.
Pineapple Juice isn't just used for troubleshooting. It is normally used from day one to speed things up an ensure success. It creates a good environment for the yeasts and LAB to take hold keeping the bad bacteria at bay. But you've done just fine with only water.
Awesome! Thanks so much for all the helpful advice.
Few questions...what do you mean by 1:2:2 or 1:3:3 (I know 1:1:1 is ratio of the water, flour, and starter, I'm just not sure the order of each...)
Secondly, when do you recommend is a good time to start thinking about baking a loaf? I've typically done feedings of my starter for 2 weeks, but I want my starter to be ready and mature for the baking
First is always starter. If the other two are the same number then no difference. Second is water. Third is flour.
And by pure coincidence this is a layout of a great sourdough formula - 1:2:3.
1 part starter : 2 parts water : 3 parts flour + 2% salt of the flour. All by weight!
150g starter (mature and bubbly) : 300g warm water + 450g bread flour + 9g salt. As an example but keep to these ratios.
If you have a 100% hydration starter then the final hydration of the loaf will always be 71% which is nice for a strong bread flour. Or strong bread flour with a bit of whole wheat and or whole rye mixed in (upto 20% is fine). If using all wholegrain then you'll have to adjust the water as it'll need to be more hydrated.
Remember this recipe! It is good.
Once your starter smells good at bubbles up on cue! then go ahead and try a bake. To make sure it is ready use when peaked. You can take a teaspoon off and drop it into a glass of water and it should float. Because your starter is kept at room temperature for the moment, constantly being fed and is always active... if you feed it 1:1:1 and it can atleast double within 4 hours then that will indicate it is ready.
When you think it's ready then feed your starter as normal and save some of the discard. With the discard build enough starter to try a recipe. Once your starter has passed the test and you can make bread with it then carry on giving it regular feeds for a bit longer but begin to think about keeping it in the fridge and future maintenance.
...but read somewhere that adding a 1/4 teaspoon of apple cider vinegar with a regular feed will "jump-start" the mixture. Mine was seemingly dead for a week, and I, too, was feeding it every day (as apparently I shouldn't have been doing...) and when I tried the vinegar trick - sure enough - lowering the pH a bit was all it took to get it going.
Prevents the PH level from becoming acidic. After the initial bubbling, feed and wait! Going dead for a week, after feeding it everyday, probably just took you back to square one. When you added in the vinegar it was like starting afresh but it speeded up! At this early stage if you discard feed, discard feed etc without the yeasts having taken hold yet then you're just throwing away all the good stuff. Overfeeding is probably one of the worst pieces of advice I've seen when making a starter.
P.s. your starter will speed up significantly if you get it up to the mid 70's. Can you find a warm place for your starter? Even wrapping it in in a towel or something.
Flour (your choice of any unbleached flour),water, stir time.
I start out with just 2 tablespoons of flour and enough water to make a thick pancake batter consistency. Cover so the flies (fruit flies love this stuff!) don't get into it and so the top doesn't skin over.
Stir several times a day until you see bubbles. Don't add any more flour or water (add a little water if it dries out too much)
Keep it 70-80 degrees. Ideal temp for yeast formation is 80F-the top of the refrig works well for that.
Where does the yeast and lacto bacillus come from?
It is present in the flour and in the environment everywhere. We live in a microbial soup.
What is happening in my starter as it forms?
It starts out with a mix of LAB (lactobacillus) and a few yeasts. The liquid nature of the starter allows the LAB to swim to access food and they reproduce very quickly at 70F. As they eat, they produce acid. This discourages other bacteria from taking over their territory. LAB are responsible for that initial wild bubbleup. They don't have the strength to raise much but they are doing their job and we want them to continue to produce acid.
Yeast, however, likes an acid environment but also are slower to reproduce and like it warmer. So if you keep it at 80F and keep stirring (several times a day), the yeast is brought to new food. They don't swim to their food, it must be brought to them. Now if they are warm and have food they will start reproducing and increase their population to usable levels. SO DON'T DISCARD YET AND DON'T FEED. At this stage you will start seeing bubbling along the edge on top or in the starter if you have it in a glass jar. Keep stirring! Give them a chance to build their population.
When you have good bubbles after stirring or perhaps even a slight rise, it is time for a feeding BUT DO NOT DISCARD. Remember, discarding gets rid of half your yeast and right now we are trying to build them up. Bubble mean that yeast (or LAB) are feeding. The more bubbles, the more feeding. An inference is that there is more yeast (or LABS) eating. You can't tell which one until later-yeast starts smelling.....yeasty.
This next step is why I start with a small amount. You may be feeding without discarding a few times and it is easier to do this with a small amount.
When you have bubbling and perhaps a rise or more bubbling after a stir, it is time to feed without a discard. So feed, stir and 6-12 hours later see what happened. If you had gotten a rise and fall,feed again. Repeat this until you get a consistent rise and fall with a feeding. This can be 1 or 2 feedings or even days worth of feeding, depending on your yeast population. Just remember what you are trying to do and keep an eye on the culture.
Anytime hootch forms (a clear to grayish liquid on top of the culture), it is past time to feed. That indicates hungry yeast which are going to anaerobic feeding and producing alcohol instead of CO2. Stir it in or dump the hootch (your choice) and feed.
How can I tell if the bubbling is LAB or yeast activity?
Generally, LAB rise and fall occurs early in the process or anytime the yeast population has really dropped in an underfed or neglected starter. It is usually a dramatic rise and fall. Many times the starter will smell like acetone,(fingernail polish remover). Yeast rise in a properly fed starter can be vigorous but is usually just more consistent. For a new starter Don't get me wrong, a very active starter can jump out of the jar but it will smell yeasty if it is that active, it usually occurs after that initial,wild LAB rise. Sometimes it can take a few days to start-depending on the yeast population and room temp. A few degrees (such as going from 75F to 80F) can make a dramatic difference!
I hope this helps. Try to understand the concepts of what is happening. There is almost too much info out in the internet and there are a thousand ways to get the culture started. Pineapple juice works to acidify the culture until the LABs get going. Rye and WW bring other enzymes and cultures to the mix. Any culture can be made into a rye or WW at any time. Yeast don't care what you feed them.
Have fun!
Hi there!
Thanks so much for this! The background information is definitely important.
Go figure when I checked on my starter (ignored for several days) today, it has risen and has bubbles/activity! So I want to get the next steps right....Are you saying I should feed without discarding? I have always fed by discarding about 80% beforehand. And should I feed every time I see a constant flow of activity? What about using pineapple juice now that it looks like my starter has some life?
Check these out. You will succeed at this.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com//node/10856/pineapple-juice-solution-part-1
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10901/pineapple-juice-solution-part-2
http://yumarama.com/starter-from-scratch-intro/
Thanks! I will definitely check these out and give them a try. So pineapple juice is used only when your starter is in trouble/inactive?
When you are first building a strter or when you are trying to build a yeast population in a very weak starter with very little activity-then don't discard before feeding for prob for just a few feedings. This will give the yeast population time to multiply. The purpose of discard is to "clean the cage" of yeast debris but there isn't much debris if there has been very few yeast. And each time you discard, you lose a large portion of your yeast population.
No. This method serves to circumvent what happened to you: early on a yeast appears and activates, then dies off, giving you the illusion that the culture died.
Meanwhile, the yeast and bacteria you want are propagating, albeit more slowly, so are not yet evident. It will be several days of feedings before they have the concentration sufficient to consume the proportion of flour called for in a levain.
The acid in pineapple or other juice kills off the former and not the latter.
40 g of whole grain rye flour and 32 g of water mixed and left to sit for 24 hours, Day 2 add 40 g of WG rye and 32 g of water stir in and left to sit for 24 hours. Day 3 take half the mix away and feed each half 40 g of rye and 32 g of water. On day 4 feed each half 80 g of rye flour and 80 g of water. On day 5, use one half to make a loaf of bread, split the other in half and feed each half to make another loaf of bread and the other half for your stored starter. Bakers have been doing this every week for at least 5 hundred years all over the world,
Works every time and easy as pie - just keep the temperature between 78 and 82 F. That's it. If you want a white starter then feed it white flour on day 5.
put a bowl under the jar in case it goes over when you are not watching it. After feeding the starter, you should have about 5 times the volume for headspace. :)
How does it smell before you feed it? yeasty? or not quite yet?