September 18, 2016 - 2:58pm
70% Whole Wheat with Flax & Sunflower Seeds
First time making 70% whole wheat bread. The crumb looked pretty closed but the mouth feel was not dense (forgot to take a photo of the crumb). But the loaf definitely didn't have much oven spring. I followed Tartine Bread's formula, added 2 cups of boiling water to soak 1 cup of flax seeds. Because of a very slack dough, I couldn't shape it properly. Anyone has made bread with flax seeds before? What should be the water to seed ratio? Total hydration was about 125%. Also, I was wondering if the dough was in fact under-fermented, therefore it was so slack?
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1. After soaking them, drain them. If you drain the liquid after doing the Soaker it won't effect the hydration of everything else.
2. If you're just adding them then follow the second pointer in the general baking information here http://www.ameriflax.com/default.cfm?page=mntech
3. Something tells me it might be difficult to drain once it has been soaking. So a third option is to include the water in the Soaker as the final hydration without taking the flaxseed into account. So don't add any extra water just yet. When forming the dough slowly add in extra water till it feels right.
Looks wonderful BTW and sounds healthful too.
The soaked water became gel like, don't think I could drain much of it out. But thanks for the baking info regarding flax seeds. I will read up on it.
1 to 3 : flax to water and it counts as part of the total water.
In one of my favorite Hamelman breads (Sourdough seed bread) he uses 3 x the amount of water to seed (by weight). So the 70 g of flax seed is doused with 210 grams of boiling water. The soaker sits overnight.
Also the water used (210 grams) counts toward the whole water amount of 750g.
hester
Thank you. Didn't know I supposed to add the soak water as part of the total hydration which supposed to be 80%.
is by weight not volume. I learned from this blog that a gram scale was almost essential to making good bread. It was one of my best baking investments... So it actually might have been 3 to 1 depending on the weight of the flax..
Any liquids you use need to be included as part of the total water.... by weight, that is.... Good luck
yes, I normally only us weight measurements, but that specific formula uses cups, so I was a little bit confused too.
flaxseeds. One recipe has you soaking 140 g of flaxseed in 180 g of hot water and the other 100 g of flaxseed in 180 g of hot water. The second recipe has several other seeds being added after the initial soak where the first has only sunflower seeds being added and I don't believe that those absorb much water. So I am wondering about your 1 cup of flaxseed to 2 cups of boiling water. It sounds like a lot of water.
What I did this weekend was to first toast my seeds (which included flax) and then added enough water to just cover. I made sure to measure the amount of water. At the autolyse stage, I reduced my usual amount of water by 15% and I mixed all the flours and seeds in at that time. I know that this is not the usual procedure but I find that add-ins get more evenly distributed and I get a much better handle on not over hydrating the dough. Then after the autolyse, I add the salt and levain as well as any extra water needed to make a nice soft dough. I ended up having to add an extra 20 grams but I rather have a slightly stiff dough where I can add water to a sloppy one where you need to add flour and all of your proportions get thrown off.
So long story short, I think you might have had too much water in your dough. Chad's recipes were driving me crazy until I took the liberty of reducing the hydration. Give it a shot.
Someone told me that there 2 different editions of the "Tartine Bread". I guess, the recipes mush have been changed. But I swear that mine does say 1 cup of flax seeds to 2 cups of water. I thought it is a lot of water too, but I also thought what if it is correct. Guess, if I make it again, I will add the soaking water as part of the hydration. Thank you.
There are two different books. I didn't check but I do feel that between the first book Tartine and the more recent Tartine 3 there is a refinement in process.
Regardless of your difficulty, your bread is a beautiful looking loaf.
to put 4 cups of boiling water on 2 cups of sesame seeds. He uses a very similar recipe (both with flaxseeds and sunflowet seeds) in Tartine 3 but he drastically reduced the water in the second book. Interesting!
Ah, ok. I guess he probably modified the formulas to make it easier to handle.
The ratio of 180g water to 100g flax seeds sounds about right, give or take.
I perform only rough measurements while baking, just so that I am not wildly off. But I usually eyeball quantities and improvise a little bit. So, normally, I wouldn't be able to tell you precise numbers.
But by sheer coincidence, I just baked one of my favorite recipes today; a German "Dreikorn" (three seed) bread. It includes copious amounts of flax seeds, sesame seeds, and millet. And I happened to be curious as to what the proper quantities are. So, for once, I got out the scales and measured my ingredients as I added them.
I ended up with 150g flax seeds and 250g water. I didn't adjust overall hydration for this water -- well, maybe, just a little. But then, I tend to generally err on the side of baking with slightly higher hydration levels, I think. So, the extra water doesn't feel strange to me. I was roughly shooting for 70% hydration.
Once you mix in extra seeds, it's always a little hard to figure out hydration. Some seeds/grains love to soak up all the water, in which case I don't think you can count that water when computing overall hydration levels. Others pretty much don't need any water at all, in which case all the water goes towards hydrating the flour. Use common sense, and then make fine adjustments when the dough doesn't quite look the way you want it.
I should probably post my "Dreikorn" recipe. Don't have any crumb shots just yet. I hope, that's OK.
Thanks for the comment. The problem for me is that I am still pretty new to bread baking. I've only baked 20 times in the last 5 months. I am unable to figure out if the dough needs more water or flour. Also, I usually add the seeds after autolyse (following Tartine's method). At that point, I don't know if I still can adjust the hydration level. So, if the recipe/formula is designed for experienced baker, I have no way to know and figure what is needed to change :-( I wanted to make this bread again because it was delicious, but I would love to make it right. I guess reducing the overall hydration will make the bread better, correct?
I find that bread dough is surprisingly forgiving. All of the firm rules that people give about when to add ingredients, how long you need to wait, what temperature you need to be at, ... those things are great to make sure that you have 100% reproducible results. And if you follow good and well-tested recipes, you can be reasonably assured that your results will be the best possible bread that you could make from these ingredients.
But that doesn't mean that these are the only steps that will lead to good results. You'll find that if you give the same list of ingredients to an experienced baker, they'll probably end up using an entirely different set of techniques and still get the same good results.
The upshot is that nothing really beats practicing. At some point, you'll get a feel for when dough looks the way it should, and what you can do at any given stage to make necessary adjustments, if any. In my personal experience, it takes me roughly one year to reach this stage for any new technique that I am learning. In the meantime, follow recipes, but don't be afraid to experiment if you think the dough doesn't do what you want it to do. You are unlikely to "break" anything.
If you forget to autolyze, you just wait a little longer with proofing, and your bread is probably fine. If you wanted 65% hydration and you accidentally got 75% hydration. Don't worry. You can either adjust by adding a little bit more flour at a later stage (pretty much any time before bench resting); or you roll with it. The dough will be a little harder to handle, but most likely, things will still work out just fine. If your dough was supposed to have doubled in size after two hours and it hasn't, just give it another hour. On the other hand, if you were expecting to bake after three hours, and an unexpected errand called you away, put the dough in the fridge and bake it when you get home. Adjust baking times by a few minutes to compensate for colder starting temperature. If your bread was supposed to be done after 45min, but interior temperature hasn't reached 200°F yet, simply add another 10-15min in the oven.
I find that the only thing that I really shouldn't mess up is salt content. Too much or too little results in really bad-tasting bread. And it is not something you easily notice until you taste the finished product. Also, it is hard to adjust for too much salt. Everything else, I try to get right on the first try, but I can usually repair as I go.
Also, I find that these days, Youtube is an amazing resource. It allows you to easily see what bread dough should look like at any step during the process.
gutschke,
Well said,,,, nice post…… Having been there I understand,,, heck I'm still 'there' most of the time….
It's all great!!
I can't agree more. Practice is very important to a green baker like me, but life constantly gets in the way ;-) I really appreciate you put in the time to explain things to me. I will do some digging on Youtube to see if I can find some video that can help me improve.
Do you mind posting your "Dreikorn" recipe? I would love to give it a try. Thanks again.
I posted the recipe here: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/49185/one-my-favorite-childhood-breads-german-dreikorn-3-seed-bread
Let me know, what you think. I find it is one of the easier breads to bake. I have on occasion baked it, when completely distracted with other household activities. As you said, life gets into the way. And even when I mistreated the dough badly (i.e. forgot about the next step for more than an hour), it always came out pretty good.
In general, I don't stress out about my baking. That allows me to bake bread while having other things on the schedule. Bread doesn't take a lot of time actively working on it, but it does take an awful lot of wallclock-time. If it means that I need to occasionally move dough into the fridge for an unexpected delay, or I need to stay up another hour to wait for it to finish baking, so be it. And on occasion, I have also tossed the bulk of my sourdough and fed it one more time, simply because my schedule ran out of control. It's not the end of the world.
One caveat though. I tend to bake at higher hydration levels. If you haven't done that before, then reduce the amount of water by a little bit. If you used 150ml instead of 180ml in the last step of my recipe, that might make it a little easier for you. Or stick to my recipe and simply make sure you use wet hands when you stretch-and-fold.
Also, this makes 1250g of baked bread. I like making bigger breads, as my family finishes them so quickly. But if that's too much for you, you can either split the dough into two loafs (possibly freezing one after baking) or reduce the overall quantities. If you do that, you must turn down baking times a little bit. Maybe, 20min covered, 25min uncovered? Check with a thermometer if the interior temperature is 200°F before removing from the oven, though.
Ha ha... I am the other way around. I am not good at multi-tasking, so I plan my day around my baking. The recipe sounds great, but I don't have dry yeast. Do I really need it? The quantity seems very little, probably just to ensure a good rise. Another interesting thing is that you butter and dust your dutch oven. I've never done that but I guess I'm lucky that my bread never stuck in it :-)
I bought a pound of yeast at Costco at one point and keep it in my freezer. There are a few non-bread recipes that I occasionally make, where I need actual yeast instead of sourdough. So, I always have some at home.
But yes, for bread, you don't absolutely need added yeast. I usually just add a small pinch, as it makes the recipe more reliable, even if the sourdough is a little off on any given day. Feel free to leave it out and just watch the dough while it proves. It might just take a little longer. I have made bread both with and without added yeast, and I find the addition does help a little bit.
If you do add store-bought dry yeast, pretty much any of it will do; instant, rapid-rise, or bread-machine. They are technically a little different. But since you are only using small amounts, it really doesn't matter much.
Yeah, you don't really need to coat the Dutch oven. Most yeasty doughs tend to release really well. You can skip that step, if you know your Dutch oven works fine that way. It's mostly a belts-and-suspenders thing, as it does suck if you ever have a bread that doesn't want to come out. It's really ingrained for me, as I also bake cakes; and for some cakes it is absolutely critical to have a good release agent.
Ah, I see. As for cakes, you definitely want it to release.