sourdough second proofing too long?
dear sourdough experts,
Can you enlighten me as to how long a sourdough should rise for the second proofing? My sourdough bread is made of 10% sourdough starter, 50% each of whole wheat and white flour, 78% hydration, no knead. The bread are normally made in a batch, which then has a bulk fermentation, and then divided into several portions and frozen. One day before baking, I transfer them from the freezer to the fridge for thawing, and after 8 hours, I take them out onto the counter for the second proofing. The bulk fermentation took about 6 - 7 hours at the room temperature until it doubled in size (but sometimes at warmer temperature as I tried to speed it up by putting it covered, under the sunshine). However, the problem is that the second rise usually took 3-4 hours, and recently it even took as long as 10 hours until I saw an almost doubling in volume.
My questions are:
1) if the theory holds correct that: the second rise takes half of the time for the first rise, then 3-4 hours of second rise should be ok? Would this contradict the most common recommendation of 1.5 hours of second rise?
2) for the extreme 10 hour case, I harvested the starter less than 3 hours after feeding, when it barely rose to its double amount (but it passed the float test), so am I correct to assume that harvesting starter too early would result in a long rising time?
3) for my new batch, I harvested the starter about 5.5 hours after feeding, when its volume was more than 3 times its original size and the starter passed the float test. Would this be a right harvest time?
Thank you for your kind answers!
Liming
For example, the temperature of the dough itself is a major influence. If it (and the ambient room temperature are low, it will take a long time to proof. If both are high, it will prove with astonishingly speed. Which part of the world are you in? Is it summer or winter? How warm or cold is the water you use? Do you take temperature readings? And that's just one possible influence. It might be worth repeating the bake whilst controlling one factor at a time. That way you'll learn more about this dough. Anyhow, here are some thoughts on your questions:
1) No, this theory only holds as a rough rule-of-thumb. There are many good and varied reasons for having a shorter/longer bulk ferment and/or proof, usually related to temperature (again), size of loaf, hydration, and working a bake into a schedule. A long rise is not a surprise considering you have a high hydration dough.
2) Yes, but again only as a rule of thumb. If the starter was at or approaching it's height of activity when you fed it, then no. But if it was still building towards full activity then, yes. It's quantity of active yeast in the starter that influences speed of fermentation. Kinda obvious when you think about it. More ripe starter = fast, less = slow.
3)Volume of your starter is only a rough guide to its readiness. It's condition is far more important. You don't say how stiff or slack it is, but, for example, if it's on the rise, and looks very active then that's telling you more than absolute volume ever does. It could be past it's peak but still be at double or triple volume (and only collapsing when you stir it).
I guess you could sum all this up as two things: don't be a slave to timings. Instead, be a slave to the condition of your dough and starter, the dough's internal temperature, and the ambient temperature in which it is rising.
to proof after coming out of the freezer and put on the counter. Sourdough could take much longer coming out of the freezer. I think it would be better to freeze the dough after bulk ferment and final shaping or even better yet - don't freeze it at all.
As RoundhayBaker has addressed, there are general guidelines, but treating them as absolute rules can lead to less than optimal bakes. You can, for example, be very confident timing your final proof if you're working in a setting where the conditions are completely consistent. As a home baker, I don't have that luxury, so I use time as a guideline, which means I adjust not just my timing but sometimes other expectations as well for any known situational differences.
For instance, when my room temp is a bit higher / lower, I expect my final proof to be bit shorter / longer. So I know roughly when to check my dough, and I err a little to the early side in case my estimate is off a bit. As I bake more, I've gotten better (although I'm still far from great) at estimating proof times. But the dough is ready when it's ready, not necessarily after X hours.
The "trick" is to get to know your starter and your doughs well enough to know when your loaves are ready to bake, which is largely about learning how they look and feel when they are ready, which is likely to involve some degree of trial and error until you have a decent idea that when your dough looks and feels a certain way, it will produce the loaf you want.
thank you all! i will try adding commercial yeast to speed up the proofing then, considering that my room temperature is already quite optimal for proofing ( i live in a tropical area, today' outdoor temperature is 28c or 82f), and freezing dough in a batch suits my schedule more than not freezing.
cheers!
liming
The more things you try changing, the harder it will be to establish a baseline from which to make / estimate adjustments in timing due to temp, etc.