Sourdough starter doesn't double up
Hello good folks!
I've recently taking up bread baking and I'm trying to do a sourdough. Instead of starting my own starter I found someone local to me that gave me some of their discard that they fed and gave to me (theirs is about a year old). I continued to feed it for a couple days before putting it in the fridge.
Last Thursday I took the 'mother' out and took 50 grams off of it and put it in a clean jar with 50g water and 50g King Arthur All Purpose Flour. I'll get some light bubbles, but it never gets real foamy or doubles.
I've continued to do this twice a day (morning and evening) since Thursday in an effort to get a good active starter to bake.
The house has been relatively cold, 68-70 so I've tried wrapping my glass jar in a kitchen towel. I've even set the jar in a sous vide water bath that maintains 75 degrees all day long trying to promote growth.
I've whipped boatloads of air into it via an electric hand mixer.
Nothing seems to get it to double up?
Attached is about how my starter looks a few hours after I've fed it. Note the lid doesn't have any perforations, but I don't put the lid on all the way I leave a sliver open so that air and gas can move into and out of the starter.
Any advice that can be given would be much appreciated.
I just made my first starter/seed culture last week. Mine looked like yours. I got excited when it doubled once around Day 8, feeding 2:1:1. The succeeding couple days it grew 25% and then zero. My house was colder than yours, and I had it in the microwave with the door ajar, 72F. It seemed healthy otherwise.
I decided temperature might be too low. I fashioned a proofing box with a heating pad inside a cooler. Temp was 82F. The starter began doubling very quickly. I moved it to 1:1:1 for a day or two, and it was doubling within 3-4 hours. I switched to 1:2:2, feeding twice a day for another couple days, using the discard for waffle batter, and then put it in the fridge.
From the reading I've done on this site, an active starter needs more food than you're giving it, and the temperature is too low for the yeast to consume in the time you are allotting. I would find a way to get between 75 to low 80s F, see how long it takes to double; if it's happening within 3-4 hours, move to 1:2:2, feeding twice a day, and then refrigerating after a feed, after an hour in the incubator immediately following the feeding. As I understand, you should expect 5-7 days in the fridge after a feeding for it to become nicely active again. It's also vital that you name your starter. Unnamed ones ... you don't want to know what happens to them.
Check out BobS's posts here:
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/32136/life-fred-maintaining-starter-pictures
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/44777/fred-dead-practical-starter-abuse
Phil
I have it in a 65 degree water bath (via sous vide) and tried it at 78 to no avail. Remember this was an active starter from someone else not raising it from the ground up so to speak.
75 not 65. Sorry
Here's my starter in the 75 degree water bath:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CZ7U4mNUEAE5vQF.jpg
The cils on the back of the refrig generate heat which rises, of course. Whatever is on top of the refrig benefits from the warmth. Great place to stash the starter. Those few degrees make a world of difference.
The top of the refrig is always warmer than the rest of the room and it is a great place to stash a starter. Those few degrees make a world of difference. Just discard,stir and feed. Don't worry about air.
Make sure to use filtered water, as chlorine will thin the colony. Stir it down before each feeding, and keep is covered with a lid.
Yes I'm using filtered water as well.
You need to screw the lid on tightly. The pressure will make it grow, and you want to minimize introduction of outside yeasts and bacteria now.
I thought I read once the good yeasts take hold the PH level of the starter will be blow the threshold most 'baddies' grow at.
Oh and to not get the lid too tight.
Mindflux
As many ways as there are bakers, for sure.
It sounds like you're doing everything right. But maybe, too right. I think you might have been overfeeding it. If you feed it before it is clearly active (if not doubled), you're essentially just diluting the populations. If you did that repeatedly, it could be a downward spiral.
The one thing I might take issue with (under no authority) would be aerating with a blender. I don't know that it's harmful, but it's possible that the gluten may be getting shredded and thus not capable of holding gas. Just a wild guess.
I've never heard of keeping a tight lid on, rather the opposite.
Any temp between 68 and 88F is more than sufficient. Whether by sous-vide, on top of the fridge or in the oven with the light on. What ever is easiest is what I would do.
I would give it a feed and then a gentle stir once or twice a day, but other than that, I wouldn't mess with it. Once it rises, feed it. But if it doesn't rise after a few days, something is wrong (it's probably dead) and you'll need to make other plans. Or you could just let it ride and it'll probably start up on it's own (particularly if you feed it Rye or WW flour).
dobie
Post didn't make it.
The blender was desperation as I had read some places that heavily aerating the stater would help get it going. Before that it was just mixed with a wooden or plastic spoon.
Yes, I think a gentle stir is all that is needed (if that).
dobie
Please take a look at these. This method for building a culture is what most people here use, and I followed it with success on my first try. The third link is a pictorial of using the method in the first two links.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10856/pineapple-juice-solution-part-1
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10901/pineapple-juice-solution-part-2
http://yumarama.com/starter-from-scratch-intro/
Very nice links. Thanks for those.
As an experiment you might try adding some diastatic malt to your starter, say 1/4 to 1/2 tsp. It might work or it might not. It's worth a try.
Also, lay off of the mixer/blender. It's a sourdough starter and won't respond to whipping like a meringue would. You want the microbes to generate their own CO2 rather than beating air into it.
The tightness of the jar lid doesn't matter.
http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/diastatic-malt-powder-16-oz
This afternoon just surface bubbles again. took 100 grams out and put 50g water and 50g flour back in and just a stir with a spoon.
Mindflux
It sounds like you are discarding and feeding it daily, arbitrarily. My advice would be, stop it. Let the colony build.
Once you've got surface bubbles, a feed is good, but a discard, not so much. You're just thinning the herd. Use a larger container at first if need be. Once you experience true rise, then go to discard with feeds (by whatever hydration, etc). Just my take on it.
dobie
You're right I might be, but that's what a lot of the guides tell you to do. "Each day toss out half of your starter (or more) and refresh it". They don't say "only do that if X happens".
Mindflux
Just my opinion, but they are wrong. This is not something I made up, rather things I learned here on TFL, and it has only worked and never failed me.
But do as you see fit.
dobie
Feeding a equal water/flour rate is good but it is often too thin to trap enough gas to rise. Thicken it up, just add more flour without discarding making the starter more dough-like and see where that takes the starter. When the starter peaks and also shows signs of fermentation and then declines in activity, that's when to feed it. If the starter tastes like wet flour, let it ferment longer before adding more flour.
Don't put a lid on a jar tightly, the building pressure can cause the jar to explode. Plastic foil with a rubber band works just fine or invert a small bowl or plate over the jar.
So make it closer to 70-80% hydration? I don't see how it can bubble if too dry
You might be counting too much on the bubble effect. You should more likely see a growing mass but not necessarily actual bubbles.
79-80% hydration is not dry. It is a very common hydration for a starter. Even more common for storage is 59-69 % just for information sake.
Try not to ovrtthink it. Flour and water should make it happen. But it might respond with a lack of enthusiasm for a while as a result of its change in environment and food.
So you just fed your starter at a 2:1:1 ratio (i.e., 2(oz starter):1(oz water):1(oz flour). I wrote earlier that you should go to 1:1:1 (at least), before moving to a 1:2:2 ratio--as one example of sound maintenance of your starter. This increase in feeding is because the yeast need more sugar from the flour to propagate and expand their colony. With more sugar they can feed more mouths. The byproduct of the yeast's sugar consumption includes CO2, which causes the dough to rise. It is likely that your friend is feeding at something like 1:2:2 for refrigeration of the starter, and you have been starving the colony since you got it by decreasing its diet to 1/4 of what it had been getting.
Again, if you read the step by step I posted earlier, the woman decides after several days to switch from 2:1:1 to 1:1:1, and then a couple days later to 1:2:2. Remember that you started with an active starter--her endpoint.
No it was 1:1:1. I poured off 100g leaving 50 behind and fed it 50 water and 50 flour.
Which is what I've been doing since Thursday.
would be good to know if it was bland, cheesy, vinegary, anything...
I didn't taste it but it smells slightly sour. I'll taste the discard tomorrow and report back! Thanks. :)
Equal flour and water is 100% hydration which is a common value for sourdough starter.
It should give off a distinctly yeasty aroma.
Yeah. I don't know that the 100% hydration is part of the problem since that's what even places like King Arthur Flour suggest.
I got my starter from a friend and feed it the percentages suggested in Flour Water Salt Yeast although I am not consistent with the amount of starter left in the jar when refreshing. I might start with anywhere from 50 to 90 grams of starter and I add 50 grams whole wheat flour, 100 grams unbleached all purpose flour (I am in Canada where we have high protein all purpose flour so depending on where you are, you may want to use bread flour) and 100 grams of 85 to 90 F water from the tap (We have chlorine). I keep it on my counter where the temp is hovering around 70 F. I feed it once a day but I am definitely not consistent with the time. It is more of a "when I remember." My starter does double but doesn't have many if any bubbles on the surface when I go to use it approximately 8 hours later. It passes the float test and works just fine to rise my loaves. The only time I see tons of bubbles is the next day when I go to feed it and it has been more that 24 hours since it was last fed. At that point, the starter has collapsed and is rather liquidy. Otherwise it has a thick pancake batter consistency. It never has a sour or vinegary smell. Just a bit of tang among the yeasty smell. I hope that something in my post help you.
Oops. That should say 25 grams of whole wheat flour, not 50!
Dani3113
Can you please tell me what the float test is? I have not heard of that.
Thanks.
Put some water in a cup or bowl, put a bit of your starter in it and if it floats, your starter is ready to be used in a bread recipe. I weigh out my starter in a bowl of water that was zeroed out on the scale so I don't do a separate float test as I know right away if the whole mass floats or not. I then scoop it out with my hands with as little water as possible and put it in my dough.
Thank you so much. I want to learn more about making sourdough. So far, have only baked one loaf, which turned out to be like a curling stone- ugh! Starter was not ready for using, I guess. In any case, I pitched it and need a new starter, so will try the pineapple juice starter from this site. Now I will know when starter is ready--I hope.
Cheers
gr.gramma
The best thing I did was to buy Ken Forkish 's book called Flour Water Salt Yeast. I was baking bricks and have made amazing bread with this book. He walks you through bread with yeast to hybrid doughs ( yeast and sourdough) to pure Levain (sourdough) breads. He even gets you to make your own starter. I had a starter given to me so I just started feeding part of it his way. I am into the pure Levain doughs (baking my way through the book) and I am feeling comfortable enough to start adding in things like feta, olives and sundried tomatoes as well as varying the combo of flours. If you are looking for an amazing resource, this book is it.
I'm not sure there is anything wrong. If the starter was active and you took 50 grams out of the fridge and fed it 50 water and 50 flour maybe it's just getting used to a new home. And I assume that by filtered water you mean filtered - not RO. Have the water at a nice temperature - not fridge cold.
I'd have started with 10 grams from the refrigerator and let it sit for a couple of hours. Then I'd use 10 grams flour and 10 grams water. Make your flour 5 grams whole wheat and 5 grams AP if you like. Sometimes AP isn't as active by itself as it could be with a mix of rye or whole wheat - in fact almost never. And I'd wait for that to increase in volume. Since you really have no idea of the behavior of starter you'll just have to watch it and get used to it.. Again if the starter was healthy there is no reason for failure. Once it has risen satisfactorily I'd double it up again until I had as much starter as I wanted for the bake.
For the record - blenders do not aerate. That is not one of their features.
Nor does your starter have to be covered tightly. It'll grow fine with a loose cover.
I also don't see bubbles per se. Small bubbles but I'm looking more for the increase in volume. I don't care about the bubbles. Obviously they are there if the starter rises.
The water is not RO to my knowledge. It's kept at room temp.
This morning the starter does appear doubled. Last night I fed it tap water and a bit more flour than 1:1:1 to give it more of a wet dough consistency rather than thick pancake batter
I wasn't using a blender. I was using an electric hand mixer with a whisk paddle. FYI. I'm not sure I'm the one that started saying blender vs mixer.
Mindflux
That might have been me. If so, sorry. Either way, neither required.
dobie
I have tightly sealed starter jars before they go into the fridge for storage. The jar did not "explode". If the starter is particularly active it will seep through the seal between the lid and the jar and you'll have a lovely puddle of starter to clean up. If you let the starter dry you'll have to get out the hammer and chisel because it will turn to concrete and you'll never make that mistake again. If you seal the jar too tightly you could find it very difficult to open again, the starter having glued the lid to the jar.
If you go down the whole-wheat-flour path you should definitely add some diastatic malt because the ww flour may not have much amylase activity, which I suspect is the case in your situation.
doughooker,
I think 'definitely' is a bit strong (not to say it would hurt or not to add). But there should be sufficient amylase in most WW flours, I would think.
I think it is the arbitrary discarding and feeding (before the colony is sufficiently active), that keeps the beasties diluted enough to prevent success.
Just my opinion.
dobie
"Definitely" meaning he should definitely try it. So far he's made all the right moves (except using the mixer). Do you have any ideas?
You don't know that unless you've measured the falling number of the flour. With WW flour the falling number could be anything and that could be the root of his problem.
When I was first trying to get a starter going I got no results with WW flour. The problem eluded all of the on-line gurus. I then switched to AP flour to which malted barley flour (diastatic malt) had been added. Presto! My starter took off. I can only theorize there was insufficient amylase activity in the WW flour.
I've had starters get very bubbly when I added a small amount of diastatic malt.
doughooker
OK. If you feel strongly about it and your experiences lead you there, then there's no argument from me.
It's just never been necessary in my experience, and my feeling was that Mindflux was probably over working the whole thing, so I was recommending simpler.
Apparently it's a moot point as Mindflux seems to have found success.
dobie
Yes, I have. Though it doesn't smell very sour. What's my next step if I just want to continue to nurture it rather than bake with it? Do i let it fall back down and discard some and feed again? I figure I'll continue to do so again until Saturday when I can actually bake?
Mindflux
First, congratulations. Most people will say the time to feed is when it collapses. That's what I would do too. At this point you should be able to discard a bit with out too much fear that it won't rise again.
I don't see why you shouldn't be baking by Sat. You should be able to start baking with the discard right now. It should only get better as it matures.
dobie
I would do exactly as you plan. Keep discarding and feeding until the weekend when you want to use your refreshed new starter. Make sure on the weekend that by then you have factored in the quantity for your bake and a bit for building on in the next bake. You still have some of the original in your fridge anyway I believe so you have a back up. But now the pressure is off to succeed so you can get to know your starter's characteristics. As you work with what is now your new starter, you will see that different flours result in different timing and volume and, of course, different flavour. You will also note differences in timing of rise and fall due to ambient temperature and water temperature used for refreshing. You can use all that knowledge to plan your bakes to suit your schedule.
Above all have fun and enjoy the results!
JaneDough
Very sound advice.
dobie
Mindflux
Sorry, I forgot to mention. When it comes to the degree of sour, the times and temps with which you manage the levain you build from your starter and thus (and then) the dough that you build from it, will have much to say about how sour (or not) your sourdough bread is.
There is a lot on this forum regarding such (just search 'more sour' or 'less sour', which will probably lead you to many fine discussions). It's more about time and temp than the particular starter. And yours (now being active) should allow you to attain whatever degree you desire.
dobie
Here's today's progress. I bumped my water bath up to 78 and made it a little more doughy last night (maybe 80% hydration)
http://i.imgur.com/I755Z2N.png
That's definitely doubled and bubbly now.
Mindflux:
The way I do it is to keep the starter in the fridge where it kind of goes dormant. When I'm getting ready to bake, I mix a small quantity of storage starter with a slurry of fresh flour and water. In 8 hours at 86 F it's frothy and ready to be mixed into the dough. The temperature is regulated with a heat lamp and a thermostat.
A note of caution: if you use too much of the storage starter, the crust will not brown and will turn out pale and leathery. You may have to discover the correct amount through trial and error.
Thanks for all the help! The starter doubled again last night (after I removed 100 grams and re fed it) .. so much so that it hit my loosely fitting lid. So it's definitely thriving right now.
Mindflux
You have found your gold. Enjoy.
dobie
for the starter to more than double. If feeding AP wheat flour, leave about 4 to 5 times the initial volume for headspace in the jar. When trying to boost the yeast population, Don't get hung up on the word "double" and let the starter peak before feeding again. You will soon fall into a routine with the starter and once stable and predictable (after several days) you can gradually lower to cooler room temperatures.
You will notice that cooler temps slow down the time it takes the yeast to eat up the flour and ferment, so you may find yourself feeding it just before the warmer part of the day letting it thrive before the cooler part of the day. Heating up the kitchen with baking will also influence the starter temperature and increase activity If the starter is hanging out on the counter. Just be aware that this affects the feeding amount and adjust slightly. :). Lots of flexibility with starters.
Still going strong. I fed it again last night (I'm on one feeding a day right now). I'm just eyeballing the consistency now and it's really active judging from the volume in my pint container in the morning. it usually starts half full after a feeding and is now spilling over the top as of the morning.
. . . even filtered water will deter natural yeast formation. I pour my filtered water into a pyrex jar and microwave until hot. I then sit the glass jar in direct sunlight outside until it cools to 80F. At this point I am ready to use it for refreshing my starter which is 50g strong bread flour, 50g treated water and 50g old levain. Depending on how long ago I refreshed the old levain, ( never more than 7 days) It sits on the kitchen counter covered for overnight or up to 24 hours, doubles or more and settles back. It is then fully ready.
You may wish to also use strong bread, and a little organic whole wheat or rye flours to get things started.
Happy baking! Ski