no expansion along scoring lines
hi,
can someone shed light on the cause of no discernible expansion along scoring lines?
my simple dough is made using the following ingredients and steps:
50% whole wheat flour (14% protein) + 50% white flour (12% protein)
78% hydration (inclusive of the starter hydration)
10% starter
no knead + bulk fermentation of the mixed dough for 6 hours under 28-30 Celsius (volume doubled)
300 French slap and fold performed until the dough feels silky and soft
3 stretch and folds with 10 minute interval
a few tension pulls (though done not professionally, and the tension created on the surface seems disappeared once the dough landed on the proofing pot: the dough just relaxed and expanded since the pot was bigger than the dough (I used a clay pot))
2 hour second proofing (dough rose by 90% of the original volume: I measured it by taking a tiny sample from the main dough and letting it rise with the main dough under the same condition simultaneously. The sample was in a small glass tube and allow the proofing progress to be easily measured in an accurate way (by ruler))
45 minutes baking in a cold oven, with the lid on the first 15 minutes, baking temperature is constantly at 220 Celsius.
the bread did not collapse during or after baking. But there was no expansion along scoring lines.
Thank you for your advice!!
Cheers
Liming
The answer might be there
Hello Liming,
Pictures help for those on TFL who are really good at diagnosing many problems with a visual to guide them.
When you say 10% starter - is that the ingredient that actually gets added to the final dough mix? Is the 10% based on Baker's Percentages meaning that it represents 10% weight of the total flour used (which always equals 100%).
10% starter/levain seems like a very low amount to be added to a mix.
Is the above list the order of activity for your dough development?
Are you doing the bulk ferment before the French Folds? The FFs are a substitute for other types of kneading or machine mixing and should be the next step after all ingredients (usually except things like fruit and nuts) are added. And precedes the bulk ferment.
As very recently mentioned here on TFL in another thread, 10 minutes between stretch and folds give insufficient time for the gluten to develop and the dough to relax between stretches. These should be stretched out (pun alert!) across the majority of the bulk ferment. If not, then certainly with at least 20-25 minutes or more between stretches.
Whatever shape you were aiming for, did you review some excellent videos out there by folks like Jeffrey Hamelman or Ciril Hitz, for example, on shaping techniques and surface tension development?
Your proofing pot is too large for the volume of dough that you are using. The vessel should provide sufficient side wall support to help maintain the shape of the dough.
A 2 hour final proof seems extreme to me - I've never proofed that long in my admittedly short history of bread making, and I now proof in the refrigerator over many hours instead.
I've never baked in a "cold oven" before, but - although the ambient oven temp may rise to 220dC the dough inside your pot remains cool much much longer. If you removed the lid after 15 minutes, then your dough probably had not even become hot enough to develop steam. Even putting a cool vessel into an already heated oven shouldn't do the trick either. The vessel is typically heated for a long time along with the oven. Lots of discussion on TFL about that.
Well, that's a starter kit to think about... alan
hi thank you all for your prompt response and suggestions. Sorry for the lack of details in my previous post, please find below my answers to your questions:
1) all ingredients are measured as a percentage of the flour weight (including both the added dry flour and the flour from the starter). So for 200grams of flour, 189grams of flours are added to a 20 grams of starter (my starter is 80% hydrated, flour to water ratio is 1: 0.8)
2) the sequence of activities is in the same order as listed
3) I used a no knead method, only trying to incorporate the slap and fold to improve the gluten development. If the long autolyse of the no knead method can be considered as bulk fermentation, then I will say that my slap and folds were done after a 6 hour autolyse or a bulk fermentation. Then I did 3 sets of stretch and folds. I'm not sure why the slap and folds have to be performed before bulk fermentation, but I did notice an improvement in the dough cohesiveness when I was doing stretch and fold, which I thought was a good sign.
4) for shaping and proofing vessel, I think I agree with you that my pot is too large and couldn't provide enough support to hold the dough. So I guess holding the shape of the dough is important for an oven spring too?
5) For my earlier batches of breads, I couldn't believe a 2-hour second proof would be ok either, and I was proofing my breads for 1 to 1.5 hours but found my bread underproofed, with dense crumbs surrounded by bubbles. Trying to find out the optimal proofing time through experimentation, I tested a small slice of the dough in a glass tube, and I indeed witnessed the small piece rising by 90% of its volume over about 2 hour time, not less. Other indicators are when I scored the dough before loading it into oven, the dough did not deflate.
6) I think you might be right in pointing out that my clay pot, together with my cold oven method, may not provide a hot enough environment. I will try preheating next time.
" I'm not sure why the slap and folds have to be performed before bulk fermentation"
The FFs are a substitute for other types of kneading or machine mixing and should be the next step after all ingredients (usually except things like fruit and nuts) are added. I think that you would agree that you wouldn't take a fermented dough that has already risen and then place it in the mixer. *Now, there's always something new, some new technique that is developed somewhere that takes an industry by storm, so just maybe you or someone else will develop a mix after fermentation method. But as is a current standard, it seems as though it just isn't done that way. Start with the known methodologies, get them down, and then experiment away once you have those under your belt.
Stretch and folds are designed to elongate the gluten strands, reorganize and strengthen the structure of the dough and to gently degas the dough to redistribute the gas already formed between the gluten strands. You may be able to get away with 10 minute intervals but by and large the majority of TFLers as well as bread book authors here would likely differ. See * above. Consider how "violent" the FFs are compared to these stretch and folds which are done along the way to first bulk fermentation completing. Nothing gentle about that.
Preheat both the oven and a baking vessel, assuming that you are not baking on an oven deck. If you don't you will still have the issue of introducing a cool vessel with cool dough into the oven. It will still take quite some time for the two to heat up. Think about when you bake a roast or turkey, etc. One wouldn't anticipate the roasting pan to quickly come up to oven temp or the roast to cook in a matter of a few minutes.
thanks Alfanso, I think now I get a better sense of the science behind the slap/fold and stretch/fold and their differences, as well as the shortcoming of the cold oven plus cold vessel.
I will change my methods: eliminate slap/fold since I use only no knead bread, and preheat at least the vessel for the dough.
thanks
Liming
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Have you ever had the results you expected with this formula at that high hydration. I would suggest reducing hydration to 60% or so and then work your way up from there. I don't really understand the fascination with really high hydration just for the sake of high hydration.
Gerhard
Do I understand correctly that you did slap/stretch and fold after bulk fermentation? What do you mean by "baking in a cold oven"? Are you getting any oven spring at all?
Can you post pics of the loaf and crumb?
A frequent cause for poor oven spring is over-proofing (gluten breaks down). Optimum proofing is hard to determine, and volume is not the best indicator. Search on this site for "poke test".
it is because it is over proofed and I'm thinking there is a 99.9% chance this is your problem as well.
...and we TFLers love going into detail over them, but over-proofing is by far the most likely. Simply because it is the commonest fault.
How about using the finger-poke test the next time you bake and setting aside the time to check frequently whilst the bread proves? That way you'll build confidence about when a loaf is ready for the oven. Sticking to proving times in recipes can be a hit-or-miss affair because there are so many factors which influence a dough's rise, and conditions in your kitchen might not match those of the baker who wrote the recipe.
thank you for your suggestions.
gerhard, my method was mainly a no knead version, with the slap and fold incorporated to strengthen the gluten (or at least I thought this is ok), so a low hydration may be too difficult.
Les and dabrownman, if the long autolyse of the no knead method can be considered as bulk fermentation, then I will say that my slap and folds were done after a 6 hour autolyse or a bulk fermentation. My cold oven means I did not preheat the oven and the clay pot that hold the dough. I didn't get any oven spring, but the bread did not deflate when I scored it or during or after baking either. You are right to say that relying on just one indicator, such as volume, is not enough to tell if a dough has risen enough. For my earlier batches of breads, I replied on the poke test and I was proofing my breads for 1 to 1.5 hours. But I found my bread underproofed, with dense crumbs surrounded by bubbles. Trying to find out the optimal proofing time through experimentation, I tested a small slice of the dough in a glass tube, and I indeed witnessed the small piece rising by 90% of its volume over about 2 hour time, not less.
thank you!
Liming
Autolyse is typically done with just flour and water... no salt or levain (starter). So it is not equivalent to fermentation. But perhaps you were including levain before you start "autolyse" (in which case it really shouldn't be considered to be autolyse). Autolyse is just a simple hydration of the flour to give the enzymes a head start on their job and starting gluten formation.
Definitely you should pre-heat the oven. I also pre-heat my Dutch Oven for 45 minutes too.
Thanks Les, for clearing my poor concepts. Yes what I was referring to was actually long bulk fermentation called for under no knead method, it's not autolyse then.
Have you taken a look at my bread's crumb? I've uploaded it. What problem do you think it has?
thanks!
Liming
Weak gluten would be my guess, Liming. This can be caused by over-proofing, as others have mentioned, but also under proofing (less likely) and inadequate gluten development during stretch/fold or slap/fold.
Another possibility is insufficient tension created during shaping.
So there are a number of possibilities, and the resulting shape may be due to more than one!
The stretch/fold and slap/fold methods are pretty easy to understand from written descriptions and especially from videos. But optimum proofing and shaping are a little more difficult to learn. In particular, proofing is highly dependent on the prevailing conditions (mainly temperature), so one must watch the dough and try to interpret the signs. It's probably the hardest thing to learn, in my opinion, especially if you're new to sourdough baking.
One more question... after re-reading your method, it looks as if you are doing slap/fold after bulk fermentation, is that correct?. Normally this is done at the beginning of bulk fermentation. Are you following instructions from somewhere? What is the source for this method?
From the pics it looks as if the vigour of your starter is good.
Stick with it, Liming... and you will succeed!
hi les, thanks for your encouragement! I was doing slap/fold and stretch and fold after bulk fermentation. I wasn't following any receipt, just thinking that doing slaps could strengthen the gluten, which should be a good thing.
by the way, i was wondering if proofing and baking in a small loaf tin could help to create more surface tension for my small bread (150-200gram of flour only). maybe loaf tin also allows me to monitor its second rise progress more accurately.
cheers!
liming
You are knocking the gas out of the dough during slap and fold. You should do it before the bulk ferment. But let me urge you to follow a tested recipe too, it'll be a good place to start.
The unconventional aspects of your process are causing problems for you.
Les
thanks Les , I will taken note of that certainly and don't do it again.
I will let you know the outcome of my experiment with my loaf tin, without slap and fold, and just stretch and fold 3-4 times over 20-25 minutes interval.
Liming
Liming I forgot to address your question regarding the loaf tin...
A tin will help prevent the loaf from being flat, for sure, but it does nothing for the tension within the dough. This can only be achieved by shaping. Shaping is less critical when you're using a tin, but it's still important. Suggest you look at some videos to see how it's done... it's a skill that can take a few attempts to master, especially for higher hydration dough (over 70%).
Les
one more picture of my bread, proofed for 1.5 hours this time. Thank you for your diagnosis :)
I'm guessing inadequate gluten development, too. The loaf simply expanded to the sides and there was no stress along the cut lines.
Thanks tgrayson, My loaf indeed has the symptom you mentioned: there were big bubbles on the sides, very big.
sure where you got this recipe but it is a weird one for sure. I'm not sure you can fix this this recipe and it might be best to just do it differently.
First off it isn't a no knead recipe. A white bread NK recipe uses time and high hydration to develop the gluten without any kneading at all. 300 Slap and folds after 6 hours negates this NK tag completely.
Normally slap and folds are done right after final mixing near the beginning of the process, after a 1 hour autotlyse of dough flour and water only and after adding in the salt and SD levain. Then slap and folds begin to develop the gluten.. After 300 then you do 3 sets of gentle stretch and folds on 45 minute intervals as dough bulk ferments. Then it might rest for an hour or two before pre-shping and 10 minutes later final shaping and placing in a correctly sized proofing basket so that the dough is supported properly as it proofs. You can retard the dough in the fridge at thos point if you want to for 8-12 hours - otr not.
For a 50% whole grain bread, you want to get it in the oven at no more than 85% proof at 450 F for 15 minutes of steam before turning the oven down to 425 F to finish baking to 205 F on the inside - but I like 208 F better for this kind of bread.. 78% hydration is not too high for 50% whole grain bread I would be at 80% using US or Canadian flour.
It is just the process, equipment and over proofing that is the problem. You should have a much better bread this way.
Happy SD baking
thanks dabrownman, i didnt get the receipt anywhere, i just created it myself haha.
can you tell me why 50% whole wheat bread should be 85% proofed ? whats the science behind it?
liming
hi dabrownman, how do you decide if a certain hydration is good for 50 % whole grain bread? i started to feel that my 78% hydrated dough is too wet and slack, and was thinking to cut down the hydration to 70-72%, just above the no knead hydration requirement. and i think at this hydration, scoring and oven spring might also be easier.
liming