Starter Survey
Hi Everyone..
I've been wondering for a while, just how many starters people keep on hand? I don't think there's a survey monkey type function on this website, so I'll just start a thread. What I'd like to know is the following :
- how many starters do you keep "on the go"
- in the fridge or on the counter?
- type of flour in each?
- why your number of starters?
- do you use them equally?
- do any have names? what are they?
- how old is each and do your REALLY think age matters? :)
My answers: I have two; in the fridge; a white flour and stiff rye; two because I started with white then learned about dabrownman's stiff rye as an easier way to go; I built the stiff rye because I didn't want to feed every week but i find that I never use it and for whatever reason love my white 1:2:2 (aka "Charlie") over my stiff rye (aka: "the other guy"); maybe I'm just emotionally attached to charlie; they are both just under a year old; i don't know enough to think that age matters (or for that matter that they are Toronto starters vs from Sanfran or Melborne, etc).
I'm not so nice to charlie, I'll admit. I don't feed him every week. Sometimes life gets in the way and I only get to him after two or three weeks. Is that really so bad for him? After I feed him, he seems back to being his old self and my bread seems perfectly fine.. Thoughts?
- how many starters do you keep "on the go": 4. Hydrations at 62%, 75%, 50%, 100%
- in the fridge or on the counter? - On the counter means regular maintenance. I've got a life outside of the kitchen, so they all live in the darkest recesses of the refrigerator.
- type of flour in each? the 50 and 100 are both "100%" rye starters. The 62% is AP flour, the 75% is AP WW and rye.
- why your number of starters? Fun! It's all a game, a hobby, you know...
- do you use them equally? no. I almost exclusively use the 75%. It is my go-to baby almost all of the time.
- do any have names? what are they? Yes they do: 62%, 75%, 50% and 100%
- how old is each and do your REALLY think age matters? :) The 62% goes way way back to the beginning - about Feb. 2014, and its ancestral past can be traced to Debra Wink's Pineapple Juice Solution (in fact there's a framed picture of a Dole's pineapple juice container hanging in their powder room). Everything else is a riff off of that one. The 75% is probably approaching a year old now, maybe just had a recent birthday. The 50 and 100 were created more recently, also from the 62% grandpa. They get "specialty" use on occasion. As far as age? As long as they are "mature starters, it matters not one whit to me. It is more a case of beauty before age in my book!
An important question that the Survey Baboon function neglected to ask is - with what frequency do you refresh them. So...If one runs low, it gets refreshed. But in general terms - 62% maybe every 4 months or so, 75% can easily go at least a month or more, but as I use it regularly it is constantly getting refreshed. 50 & 100, also in the realm of a few months. And if they go bad? I just rebuild them from ol' reliable 62% when needed (but that hasn't happened yet). Takes about a day or less of mostly inactive time on my part.
Alfonso, I'm surprised to hear that your two flour, two hydration starters. I would have thought one with rye and another with AP would be enough. If you create a levain beginning with an ounce of your 62 AP vs 75 AP WW, can you really tell in the final loaf in any discernible way? Same with 50% or 100% with the rye. Unless you use the starter for all of your levain recipe weight, I'd be surprised. But I don't know what I don't know! I'm curious.. let me know please!
I'm also surprised you only feed every few your AP based starters every few months. Obviously, you'll get hooch on the top, but I didn't know that an AP starter could survive that long without feeding. I use 100% hydration with AP - I wonder if that makes a difference to "shelf life" versus your 62%..
Thanks for responding.. bake happy!
bread,
A few clarifications are due here. The 62% is actually a ~65%. I refreshed it in the first few days of November (2015!), so I forgot its hydration percentage, but just checked. That's the AP starter. I keep a piece of plastic film tightly over the surface to keep it from drying out and other than it occasionally weeping literally drops of liquid over a long time - no hootch forms. I use the wisdom of mariana to guide me through the three stage refresh process. When I do use this starter as my base for a levain I go with dabrownman's "no muss no fuss" 3 stage build guidelines to give me a levain to work with.
I use the rye levains infrequently: Greenstein/Snyder's Jewish Sour Rye, Hamelman's Pain au Levain with mixed starters as well as WoodenSpoon's Rye Levain Batards and PiPs Rye Batards w/ Caraway. So, as long as I created them, I can keep them around. Back to the word hobby...
Now, just a word about my own nomenclature - I define starter as the goop that will be used in a build process to eventually provide me with a levain. Levain is the final outcome of that build process that will be used as a primary ingredient in the mixing of a dough. Now that I've said that...
The 75% goop is not actually a starter, but rather a stiff levain. It is refreshed with frequency via a new 75% hydration feed whenever it runs low or I feel like it. So there is no "build process" per se with this child. And if there isn't enough on hand when I am ready to start a new dough, I simply give a portion of it a feeding and it is ready for it's eventual destiny in about 3-4 hours (depending on amount of new feed) in my warm kitchen. Whatever is left over goes back into the tub, and with a few turns of the silicon dough scraper gets incorporated into the remainder.
When I use it for a formula that calls for a liquid levain, I merely add a few more grams of water to the mix to bring the hydration level up to about what the dough calls for.
I haven't a clue as to how standard this process is, having been developed as a curious experiment from a too-large-build, but for me it works like a charm. This is what the 65% and 75% look like. You can see that the 65% starter in the square tub shows virtually no hootch, just a few glistening drops in the upper left corner that weeped out of the mass. The 75% stiff levain is more "billowy".
One white wheat starter in two small jars in the fridge. They are interchangeable. One backs up the other in case disaster strikes.
Hydration is 133%.
No names.
.. to have a dried out bit of starter kept in a zip lock bag in the fridge as starter? That way you don't have to maintain two? And I'm just curious - how or why did you settle on 133% as your hydration? Seems like a particular number..
bake happy..
I only keep one sourdough starter in the fridge, it is mostly fed wheat flour though once in a while I feed it 50% rye flour. This one has lived in my fridge since August 2010, it replaced my earlier starter which died while Cherie and I where in Italy for a month. I have never calculated it's hydration, I just add water and then enough flour till I have a stiff starter again. My results seem consistent enough so I don't think I will start doing it with more accurate measurements.
Gerhard
Three on the go. All in the Fridge. I'm keeping about 550g of wheat & spelt and a little less Rye (about 400g)
White wheat @ 100%
White Spelt @ 100%
Rye (mix of light Rye & whole Rye, whatever I have to hand) @ 150%
The wheat & spelts are now about 5 years old (maybe a bit more) the Rye... Well, I got it from someone who'd had theirs for about 8 years who got it from someone who'd had it for about 15 before that, so it's a bit of a long tale...
I don't think it matters how old it is once its settled down - after the first month or so.
My Rye and Wheat are used 5 days a week, the Spelt 4 days a week.
For wheat and spelt, I calculate how much I need, then divide that by 5 and that's how much starter I use with 2/5 flour and 2/5 water - makes a levian still at 100%. The rye is maintained at 150% when I make the levian from that.
I still occasionally use the spelt directly from the fridge into the dough, however sometimes I'm using it with the wheat to make up a very large wheat levian which needs some 800g of starter. (ie. 500g white + 300g spelt + 1600g wheat flour + 1600g water for 4Kg levian)
No names - they're not personalities, they're ingredients.
-Gordon
when I read about how much you bake.. there has to be something genuinely rewarding about turning out so many great loaves every week. As to the names, I read somewhere that giving your stater a name (while admittedly only an ingredient) makes it more likely that you'll remember to feed it over time and not let it die.. In our house, "charlie" is part of the family and the kids feel a sense of contentedness with the idea that we keep a live starter in the fridge.. or at least that's how I look at it! Admittedly, it's oddly rewarding when I asked my oldest daughter what she had for breakfast this weekend and she said "yeah, I had some charlie waffles for breakfast - they were so good".. :)
Basically I don't "refresh" - if that means throw some away and top it up. They're effectively dormant (well really slow!) when in the fridge, so nothing I'm worried about.
I top up the starters every time I use them - so from that point of view, it's really hard to miss a feed (top-up), else the jars would be fairly light when I put them back in the fridge.
And I don't have kids, so maybe that's it ...
Right - off to a local produce market now with a big basket of bread, and for once, I'm early..
-Gordon
I currently keep 2 starters and actually right now have 2 jars of each from moving around the country.
"Jack" was found at a flea market in a dry packet in the original packing for a tourist souvenir of "SanFrancisco Jack". He was inside a real cellophane packet in a very dusty,dirty baled jar with all original labels and instructions and was a cheap date at .25. He was packed before bar codes (sometime in the 60's), hence his age. When I finally learned enough about starters, I woke him up and have now been using him about 8 years. Excellent starter that has now travelled with me everywhere. He is kept about 125%,fed with AP and kept in the refrig. On good baking times, he is used 1x per week, fed to a good rise and put back in the refrig. He has been neglected in the frefrg for as many as 4 wkks and bounced back. He has also been dried, stiffened and frozen as backup.
My other starter is "Grape" and started life as a fruit water yeast using grapes from my daughter's yard. I just transitioned it to a flour starter. Still maintains some unique fruitiness but the longer it lives here, the more Jack and Grape resemble each other. Like an old married couple. 125% (not precise), AP flour,refrig, try to refresh every 1-2 weeks.
If I want to make a high percentage rye, I use Jack or Grape and make a rye sour for 1-2 days ahead. Otherwise I just use them for any other flour-WW,Khorason, partial rye,etc
At one crazy time I had 2 or 3 other starters I had grown. When I found Jack, they all went into pancakes. :)
.. about jack! I read somewhere about someone in that gives away his family's starter if you ask. It was something about having the starter in his family for a few generations, and he wanted to send it out in the world.. But I like your story better! bake happy.. thanks for participating!
- how many starters do you keep "on the go"
Just one!
- in the fridge or on the counter?
It's in the fridge, unless I'm doing more than a couple of bakes in a week.
- type of flour in each?
Strong white supermarket flour.
- why your number of starters?
1 is all I need, I simply use it in every recipe.
- do any have names? what are they?
Sanna IV
- how old is each and do your REALLY think age matters? :)
5/6 years, and I don't think it makes any difference.
starter in the fridge for 20 weeks at a time or more with no maintenance. I usually just build levains from a small amount of it every week using what ever flour I am using for that weeks bread. This starter was begun in SF in 1973 but has changed much over the last 43 years and age means nothing when it comes to starters except for bragging rights that mean little. It was started from Clayton's book the Complete Book of Bread that was also first published in 1973. I usually make fresh 100% whole rye starter from scratch each time I make a 100% rye bread because it is fun, so easy to do and 'old time'. I like to be old time when making bread and I just fold a bit of these into my old on when I am doe with them. I suppose i fold 8 or 10 of them into it each year.
Since I have been making weird starters of late, also for fun and trying to be old time, I have a Witch Yeast Starter and a cooked potato starter in the fridge that are fed potatoes not flour and a white flour Witch yeast starter that is fed AP. I will eventually toss the potato ones and fold the white flour one into my rye starter
No names for starters. I have had so many of them i would run out of names and I'm too old to remember them:-)
We are never keeping a starter of any kind on the counter ever again. It is way too much work, wasteful and the bread made from it isn't any better - at least I can't tell a difference plus I don't like non sour white bread very much compared to others and white flour starters kept, on the counter make the least sour bread possible. I don't want to be tied down to anything much less a starter on the counter. You live and learn a better way as time goes on and I only bake 1 loaf of bread a week. If was baking every day or two I would use old dough and not even keep a starter.
But to each their own. Most folks don't like sour bread and prefer a white one too. Most of the flavor and sour come from how the levain is built from the starter anyway - so the starter is less important if you don't want a sour bread.
Certain breads require specific starters to make them like Desem, Panettone and quite a few others etc. It is hard to make a 100% whole wheat bread using a rye or white starter:-) It is just fun to make new starters different ways to see what the difference, if any, in the bread they make. Plus folding new starters into the old one i figure keeps the old one on its toes with the survival of the fittest thing going on. But, like most people I'm lazy and I want things to be easy. Just like like the people I adore, I want my starters to be
No Muss No Fuss StarterOk, I'm confused.. What do you mean "old time" ?
I've learned a lot from you and your no fuss, no muss starter. Using that link is how I built my stiff rye starter (the other guy) in the fridge. I so infrequently use it, that when i took a peak at it earlier tonight, it seemed to have some dark/black stuff in it.. so I think it's "kaput" and I should get ride of it... to each their own I guess. I would bake more if I had more time. Life gets in the way, but like you I try to bake every wee - it doesn't always work out that way.
Thanks for sharing - bake happy!
take some of the stuff from below, about 5-10 g and do a 3 stage refresh with that. If it can't double after the 2nd 4 hour feeding at 84 F then toss the 2nd build and feed it another 2nd stage build. When it doubles, then feed it the 3rd stage and refrigerate it after it rises 25%
Old time just means that way things used to be done in the old days. The Witch yeast starter comes from a 1907 cookbook and the raw potato starter is from one about the same time. Building a rye starter from scratch and baking a rye bread with it after 4 days is the way rye breads were made for about forever. Making SD bread is old time and goes back thousands of years. It is just fin to see hpow people used to do things before machines and commercial yeast came into being.
Making Barm Bead by scooping off the yeasty foam from fermenting beer is also old school and how almost all bread was actually made for thousands of years - except for the wee bit of SD and potato starter bread that was made.
Happy baking
- how many starters do you keep "on the go" - 2
- in the fridge or on the counter? - fridge
- type of flour in each? - bread, rye
- why your number of starters? - one for each hand
- do you use them equally? - depends on the formula
- do any have names? what are they? - left and right
- how old is each and do your REALLY think age matters? :) old and strong!
I don't think so. I was careful to say it's one starter in two different vessels. I alternate between the two. I find it just as easy to have two jars in the fridge as one.
133% is easy to mix, handle and pour. I had to do careful fine tuning through trial and error of the amount of levain used when making up the starter, though. Too much levain/inoculum in the starter and the crust doesn't brown. It comes out pale and leathery.
Age: After a few weeks in the fridge, a starter seems to reach its maximum ripeness and develops a nice layer of hooch on top (which I stir back in). Beyond the point of maximum ripeness I don't think age much matters.
- how many starters do you keep "on the go"
I only keep one mother culture. I have dabbled in a few different ones, but always have come back to a single one. All more specific starters (different hydrations) are created as pups from the mother culture, retaining the original's 100% hydration.
- in the fridge or on the counter?
I try to keep him on the counter, but in periods of inactivity (read: work) the starter jar lives in the fridge, about an hour after a strong feeding. I have successfully revived this starter (or pups from this starter) after months in the fridge.
- type of flour in each?
100% hydration, flour is 1:1 AP:WW, usually a locally grown or milled flour on the whole wheat portion.
- why your number of starters?
I've found this easiest to maintain, when I kept more than one culture going, I seemed to neglect one or the other. I always fall back to one eventually.
- do you use them equally?
I only have one, so...yes?
- do any have names? what are they?
Bill, Named after the person I got the starter from. A wonderful friend of the family that has now passed, a one-legged, red-headed, Scottish homebrewer. He usually used the starter for waffles, and maintained it much differently that I do now.
- how old is each and do your REALLY think age matters? :)
I never asked, but I've heard that Bill had his starter for 15 years or so before I received it, and nobody remembers where he got it from originally, so who really knows. I've been using it 5 years now, so it is at least 20 years old. I don't really think it matters, as my culture has changed greatly over time, especially each time I move cities.
bill sounds like a guy I'd enjoy a good whiskey with... here's to all the baker's adrift and lost at sea.. may they rise again.. bake happy..
How many? One
Fridge or counter? Fridge
Type of flour? Mostly bread or AP, with some whole wheat and whole rye thrown in. Hydration unknown but probably in the 55-65% range.
Used equally? Sure.
Names? Nope.
How old and does it matter? This one is 5 or 6 years old. I can't see that age makes much of a difference after the first few months. Feeding and maintenance regimes have a much bigger impact on starter characteristics.
Paul
- how many starters do you keep "on the go": One, although I have plans for at least one more
- in the fridge or on the counter?: Fridge
- type of flour in each?: KA AP
- why your number of starters?: that's the number that works for me. i don't bake much, and am just starting out with sourdough so i'm trying to learn to crawl before I walk (WW) and run (Rye).
- do you use them equally?: N/A
- do any have names? what are they?: Griffin. Long story, but when I started making a starter I used grapes. The results were middling. I tried making one with pineapple juice too. Also middling. So after keeping them separate and doing lackluster side-by-side bakes with the grape and pineapple starters (to see if there was a difference) i got fed up one day and just threw both starters together and put the jar in the fridge, expecting the whole thing to either die or eventually be thrown away. To my surprise, the combined starters rose a bunch in the fridge and produced great bread thereafter, so now i have my hybrid (the Griffin, of course, is a mythical hybrid creature).
- how old is each and do your REALLY think age matters? :): About six months old. Don't think it matters since it's being replaced/refreshed so often.