January 4, 2016 - 6:08am
the way to cool bread and bread height
hello,
My bread always seems to get shorter in height after being cooled in an upside position. I've checked that the gluten development is quite good before second proofing, and there are not signs of overproofing either. Other aspects of the baked bread seem fine, such as fluffiness and volume. So I'm quite puzzled about the cause for the lower height.
Can anyone help ? Thanks!
cheers
Liming
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Hi Liming and welcome to the forum
I've had this happen a few times and have always attributed it to overproofing of lower gluten doughs. I've only experienced it with loaf pan breads and one thing in common was that while the density of the crumb was fine at the lower part of the loaf, as I looked up further to the top, the crumb became airyer and more open, which I attributed to overproofing.
My thoughts would be to cut back on the proof a bit and perhaps to finish the bake with the loaf out of the pan and bare on the rack (or stone), perhaps with the door cracked and the oven off for the last 5 or ten minutes to help give the otherwise enclosed 5 of 6 sides of the loaf some air time and thus crust structure.
I'm not sure why you would cool the bread in an upside down position, but I can only imagine that it would exacerbate the problem.
Hopefully someone with a better understanding will chime in. These are just my experiences and in no way definitive.
It would be helpful to know the basic recipe you're using. Is it just flour, water, salt and yeast; or is it enriched with oil, egg or sugar? What flour(s) are you using and what was the internal temp of the bread at finish? What is the form and were any special techniques employed?
Anyway, welcome again.
dobie
thank you dobie for your detailed explanation!
I cooled my bread in an upside down position because that's what i ve learned from a bread machine instruction when i used bread machine before. and i continued to do this as i thought this is the right way, although i have no idea about the science behind it at all.
i think my bread gluten level should be not low. my bread is not enriched, with just flour, water, salt and yeast. and i used 80% of 12% protein flour plus 20% of 15% protein whole wheat flour plus 1.05% of vital wheat gluten.
i forgot to take internal temperate of my bread but i was quite confident that they had the hollow drum sound when i tested them.
as for the baking technique, mine was very simple; i just baked my bread in a glass casserole, with the lid on only for the first 10 minutes.
thanks for your sharing!
cheers!
liming
liming
The flour percentages seem fine (in fact, very much so). I don't know the hydration, but it shouldn't much matter.
The glass casserole with lid on for the first 10 minutes seems fine as well (rather like a Dutch Oven).
The hollow thump can be deceiving (altho I'll probably catch hell for saying that). Internal temp is a better indicator (altho it too can be deceiving).
Not knowing the hydration rate or the oven temp, I would say all things being near normal, I think your issue is probably overproofing (and cooling upside down).
If you do the 'poke' test, you might find that helpful, tho it too is a very subjective thing. Ideally, when you press a finger or two into the proofing dough (a half an inch or so), you want to see it push back near to the original surface but not quite totally. Then it is ready.
Between that and cooling right side up and perhaps allowing the last ten minutes or so of the bake to be out of the dish, I think you have a good chance of solving the problem.
Let me know how it goes.
dobie
hi Dobie,
I think I still haven't mastered the poking skills so today's bread still gets shorter a bit while being cooled in an upright position.
I guess overproofing could be the main reason.
then about the poking test, I found that different parts of the same dough may not react to my poke in the same way, some part seem to spring up a bit while the indent may remain in other parts. I'm quite confused.
And how do you second proof your dough? I wonder if it is necessary to proof it in a moist and warm environment, like inside a large steam on top of a pan of warm boiled water, or just inside an turned off oven? I have been second proofing the first way, but am now guessing that this accelerates the second proofing so much that I couldn't react and take actions in time.
cheers
Liming
That may well be your problem. If you're proofing at too high a temperature the faster expansion of the dough could be damaging the gluten structure. And from what you say you should have plenty of that.
In fact, why are you adding extra gluten? Your flour mix should be providing enough and having too much would make your problem worse, as the dough will be tighter and less willing to stretch.
Try proofing at ambient temperature or anywhere up to 50°C (~120°F). Warmer than that is too warm. The proofing environment doesn't need to be very humid, either, just not so dry as to draw moisture from the dough. Covering it so as to stop moisture escaping is good enough. I have deep loaf pans and just put cling film (Saran wrap) over the tin to seal them.
hi Joh, thank you for your advice! i will adjust my way to make and proofing dough based on your insight!
cheers!
liming
.
hello, sorry for being away for a few days as I have been busy experimenting with my bread dough. So the end result of my experiments was still not good, the bread still flattened while cooling, in fact, it didn't expand upwards visibly while proofing.
Here is further details about my dough and sorry about the lack of it in my previous posts:
1. 100% 15% protein whole wheat flour at about 270g
2. 90% water
3. 1.5% commercial yeast
4. 10% 6-day old sourdough starter (100% hydration)
5. 1.8% salt
6. 12% sugar
7. minimal mixing only, no kneading
8. 14- hour cool fermentation in the fridge ( 2-3 hours into this, i did a window pane test, and the dough stretches into a thin film without easily breaking, it was quite thin though i didnt check it against light to ensure it was translucent)
9. at the end of the 14 hour, i realized there was a sign of over proofing (a finger poke can leave some indent), so I quickly took it out of the fridge, round it into a large ball and let it rest for only 15 minutes (not even a second proofing?) before baking.
10. baking was done in a glass casserole with a lid on for the first 10 minutes.
The end product come out having a lot of small holes, quite chewing and soft, but certainty not as fluffy and light as i want, and is flat. I'm wondering if too much yeast added, too long a cold fermentation and the over proofing were the main factor, not the gluten development.
Thank you for your great insight!
Cheers
Liming
Liming
Are you saying that it actually flattens as it's cooling or that it's flat after the bake? Or both?
Doing a quick check on your numbers, things seem about right.
Just to check a few details, is the WW flour commercial, out of the bag or are you milling it? It's not 'sprouted' flour, is it?
If I were in your position, I would do one of two things at first.
While 90% hydration is not unreasonable for a 100% WW flour recipe, I would make a drastic reduction to perhaps 70%, just to see what happens.
The second (and seperate) adjustment I would try would be to skip the cold fermentation and just build the gluten with some stretch and folds on the counter (or in the bowl), letting the whole thing occur at room temperature.
If either of these things make even flawed improvements, you can begin to dial it in from there.
It could also be your tensioning technique. There are many vids on youtube showing various techniques that might prove helpful (if only to check that you're doing it right).
The last thing to consider (and maybe should be the first thing), would obviously be the degree of proof. One thing you could do would be to divide the dough in half (or make two batches) and proof each one to somewhat extremely different extents. Do one as you would be doing currently and either reduce or increase the other (considering your discription of the crumb, I would lean towards an increase).
One experiment at a time will give the clearest results. It's only time and flour.
Keep in touch.
dobie
hi dobie,
I didn't measure the height of my bread and I only saw that it become a bit flatter after cooling, and most of the holes in the bread are not very open.
The WW flour I use is a commercial type.
Thank you very much for your suggestions. I think I can try out your second idea when I do my next batch of doughs next week (I'm reserved about using 70% hydration for 100% WW flour as I'm using the very lazy no knead method, which calls for high hydration). I have very limited bread baking experiences and have never done stretch and fold to any dough before. But I will try to learn and see how it goes, haha.
thank you!
Cheers
Liming
Hi Liming
Yeah, I was just rethinking that 70% might be too drastic. 80% would probably be better.
Stretch and fold tequniques are pretty easy. It's probably easier for you to find a few examples on youtube rather than for me to try and explain it in words. Very easy, very effective.
In fact, one thing to try might just be to do some S&Fs every thirty minutes or so for a few hours (or until the dough tightens up) and then continue to the cold fermentation as you have been doing. That could make all the difference that you would need.
Don't even bother with my other suggestions until you see how that goes. I didn't realize you weren't doing S&Fs. They are a really quick process (a minute or less each), so you can still be fairly 'lazy' ;-)
Good luck.
dobie
thanks Dobie, :) Just seen a youtube video on stretch and fold, it looks easy. haha, can't wait to try .
Will keep you updated.
Cheers!
Liming
hi Dobie,
for the last few weeks, I have been watching bread baking videos on youtube, observing other peoples' bread baking process and learning to incorporate various kneading techniques into my bread baking, such as stretch n Fold, tension pull etc. Based on the results of my experiments, I think my bread has definitely improved because of these new processes, but there are definitely lots of room for further improvement.
improvements thanks to your suggestion to do stretch and fold:
1) my bread does not shrink like before any more: After my sourdough bulk rest for the initial 8 hours (not as long as 18 hours as some may suggest on youtube as my room temperature is quite warm at about 28-30+ celsius), I normally let it sit for 15-30 minutes and then do 3 - 4 sets of stretch and fold on them over an interval of 10 minutes. I used 50% of 12% protein white flour and 50% 14% protein whole wheat flour, and the above steps can give me fairly good gluten development. Although I guess it should be much better if I can improve my handling of the dough.
2) for the second rise,I finally found out my old problem t: I did not give enough second rise time for my previous bread and that's why the crumbs were not open and airy. In one most extreme case ,I once only proofed my 200gram dough for 15 minutes before baking it. I think I used to be too reliant on the poke test, but according to what I found out in my online research recently, a proper rise in volume is more important a signal that the the second rise is complete, much more so than the finger poke.
I wish I could upload some of the photos of my bread and show you but unfortunately my handphone that I took the photos with had some problems today.
Room for improvement:
1) I think I still couldn't master the observation skills for a optimal second rising. I now know that to be baked, the dough should not feel stiff but feel soft and slightly puffy. But I think I still couldn't find the right time to call off the second proof, because every day my bread seem to have slightly different quality: I once had a bread with a few big holes, and the rest of the areas filled with very small and not very open holes. I also used to have a bread with more evenly distributed and more open holes. but today I just had a bread with no big holes and very small holes. and sometimes part of my bread seems to be dense, with have no holes at all.
How would you suggest I can improve my bread?
Thank you!
Liming
Liming
Thanks for the update. I'm glad the videos have led you to success in preventing the shrinking, collapsing problem.
Yes, 28-30C is quite warm and you are wise to adjust your times accordingly.
And even at those temps, it sounds like you were underproofing the final. For myself, I use a combination of time, temp, feel/poke to determine when proofed. I'm still zeroing in on that myself, but I'm way better at it then I was a year ago (even 3 months ago).
Regarding the inconsistant crumb issues; I too have experienced at one time or another, those that you describe. What I've been coming to realize, is that (given a dough of the same ingredients/recipe) how far along in the bulk ferment or the proofing of the dough you are at to the next manipulation (more kneading, S&Fs and/or pre-shaping/shaping, and how gently or agressively they are done) as well as the final proof, greatly influences the finished crumb.
If I take a chunk of dough that has been cold retarding for 24-48 hrs from the fridge, it will have many large bubbles. I can gently preshape, rest for a bit, then gently shape and tension, final proof and then bake to get a very nice (for me, anyway) open crumb of large holes, typically for baguettes.
I can take the same chunk of dough and by being more aggressive in my approach (deflating more large bubbles), it (obviously) will not have such large holes, altho (properly proofed) will still be a light and quite open crumb.
The times I have gotten large holes surrounded by a rather tight crumb, are when I have preshaped and shaped the dough (even gently) but not allowed much of a final proof.
Of course, it's always a matter of intent as well. Depending on what bread you are making and for what use, one day you might seek one quality or another, and different techniques with the same dough, can provide those qualities.
There may be many other considerations and techniques to entertain and/or apply towards the same. These are just what I've been working on lately.
Just to state the obvious, consistant technique leads to consistant results. It sounds like you are well on your way.
Congratulations.
dobie
thanks dobie, and i will try the cold retard technique for the bulk fermentation stage, and see the differences in crumbs.
cheers!
liming
liming
Yes, let the bubbles brew.
Let me know how it works out for you.
dobie
The dough seemed to be over proofed, was then shaped and given hardly any final proof, which may have proved fruitless anyway. I think you're lucky not to have ended up with a brick. Less yeast and/or a shorter bulk fermentation.
"...not as fluffy and light as i want..."
You may be expecting too much from wholemeal flour.
Also, is there a particular reason for that 12% of sugar? You don't need any sugar to make bread.