Second attempt at sourdough bread and help making it "sandwichable"
So this loaf is my second attempt at a "San Francisco" style sourdough bread. I used this recipe except I substituted dark rye flour in for the whole wheat: http://www.sourdoughhome.com/index.php?content=sfsd1
My first loaf ended up like this one too. Both tasted terrific, both on their own, with fondue (though it was a bit soft to be ideal for fondue), and as a ham sandwich. I knead by hand and used water to prevent the dough from sticking. However, after the ferment and shaping it into a boule and letting it rise it doesn't quite have enough oomph to form a nice bulbous boule. It ends up flatter. See the attached pics. I'd like to keep a rustic shape but make it more sandwichable. Should I try a batard next time or is there something I'm doing wrong that's preventing it from getting that nice bulbous boule shape? I also need to make my slashes deeper I think.
not using rye and sticking to wheat for the time being. Rye simply does not have the extensible gluten that wheat has, so you'll be losing a lot of the glue that's used to keep the bubbles in and keep it all intact and in good shape.
Also, don't be afraid of using a tin - it's the best way to get a sandwich loaf. Bannetons also work, but if the dough doesn't have the strength to hold shape when you tip it out, (e.g. due to high rye content) then there's still the possibility of losing height.
-Gordon
I didn't think about the rye weakening the structure. I'm certainly not opposed to using tins, just wondering if there was anything I can do with it without. It sounds like it just may be too weak to do without a tin as I made it. I'll buy a few tins and I'll also try it with straight bread flour to see how it ends up. Thanks for the help!
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True "San Francisco-style" sourdough, if that's what you're after, is made 100% with white wheat flour, preferably bread flour.
Hi tugboat and welcome to the forum
Everything Gordon says is true and is good advice in my opinion.
When you are ready to try with Rye again, let me lead you to this recent link
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/44371/sourdough-serendipity
where Abe posted Hamelman's Vermont Sourdough recipe and his process.
After having had many of the same issues as you have had with Rye as a component, I found this recipe to be not only easy but successfull for a sandwichable boule (I posted a few pics further down below) and a good starting point for further developments.
Good luck and say 'Hi' to the spirit of Blind Willie McTell for me.
dobie
tugboat
I revisited the link to your receipe and started doing some math and things aren't working out.
The website's recipe claims the Bakers Percentage of water (or 'hydration' of the dough is 64.8%. The only way I could come close to that number (and mine says 64.7%) would be to ignore the flour and water content of the 100% hydration starter.
I know it seems logical that if the starter is 50/50 water to flour (to be 100% hydration) that all things being equal, those weights don't need to be included in the math to the Baker's Percentages. But this is not true.
To reference the recipe;
Water is 550g. WW and Bread flour total is 850g. So, 550 divided by 850 is 64.7% (or 64.8% according to the site).
Now if you allow for the 170g of starter to be 85g each of water and flour and add those to the previous totals, the water in the recipe is now 635g and the flour is now 935g. These are the 'real' totals.
That being said, 635 divided by 935 is 67.9% hydration, not 64.7%. Quite a difference, in my mind.
Go further into the recipe and compare the described weights of 'halved' doughs to the ingredient weight totals, and the math falls apart even further. The next time you can figure 2 X 770 to equal 1587, let me know. Like I said, something's fishy
Add to that, that the two images of the finished breads appear to me to be about half (or par-) baked at best, I would question this whole endeavor.
I also don't understand how 10 minutes of kneading by 'machine' (stand mixer, I assume) could be equal to 10 minutes of kneading by hand. I guess if you're fast enough, but I know I'm not.
Just some thoughts.
dobie
No, it says the water added to the dough is 64.8 B.P.
The correct hydration of the dough is 68.0%. You must properly take into account the flour and water content of the starter.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1P7RBFZle75Enp2dmxX3vPFXCiq0cphXtMnkGUiwdkoY/edit#gid=0
Thank you Mixinator
The lesson was worth the emabarressment.
Obviously I thought the BP of water was meant to be the total of the recipe. Clearly, I was wrong. In fact, the recipe makes no statement of hydration rate. So my rant was much ado about nothing. My apologies to the website and for any confusion I might have caused anyone else.
Lesson two is, don't drink and post.
Thanks for clarifying.
dobie
Thanks for the feedback! A kitchen-aid mixer with a dough hook is definitely on the must purchase list, right now I'm just making due with what I have. Thanks for the link to the recipe too! I'll have to try that bread.
I'm not looking to necessarily do a strict "San Francisco" style sourdough, just a good bread. For one, I don't have a SF sourdough starter and don't plan on getting one. My Ischia starter that I use for "near-politan"pizza dough (Neapolitan-ish style adapted for a conventional oven) has given me some really good bread thus far and I don't want starters to overtake my fridge. I just thought the SF style might be simple riff off of.
Also, I'll say hi to BWMcT for you! Learning his version of "Statesboro Blues" on the guitar actually (sans 12-string).
tugboat
Let me apologize again for last night. Got home from a party (after a few drinks) and stupid is as studid does. I have a hard enough time with math to begin with, you'd think I'd know better than to act like an expert.
Before you go out and get a KitchenAid stand mixer, there is a lot of discussion on the forum regarding other options that you may well want to look into. Also, a stand mixer is not essential by any means (regarding bread dough anyway).
That money might be better invested in a grain mill, the options of which are also well discussed on this forum. That would be more essential in my opinion.
Near-politan pizza? Very funny. I'm gonna steal that (just around my friends). But being able to adapt is an important quality.
Regarding SF sourdough - ripoff or not? Oh no, you're not gonna get me to go there. I will say however that I have heard much discussed about the distintiveness or the similarities between sourdoughs of different regions. Many will say that you can import a true SF starter to another region and in short time it will be a starter of that region (indigenous beasties) and not SF. Others say quite the opposite. Some say they're all the same. This is just to mention discussions I've read on and not any opinion of my own.
And while I do think a lot of businesses use the term fairly loosely, I haven't formed an opinion other than; don't just add citric or ascorbic acid or plain vinegar and sell it to me as San Francisco Sourdough. But for the most part, the ingredient list on the label should make that clear. It's just a shame that one has to be so attentive to be sure of real sourdough.
I appreciate the nod to the spirit of BWMcT. And don't worry about playing it on a 6 rather than 12 string. That only means you have to play it twice. Just to mention my favorite tune of his 'Southern Can Is Mine' (nothing personal, mind you).
dobie
Well, there is no end to the uninformed cruft, rubbish and nonsense you can read on the Internet.
There is one prominent San Francisco bakery that has a vested self-interest in perpetuating the mythology, mystique and aura surrounding S.F. sourdough. When you taste it, their bread has a strong vinegar flavor, so what does that tell you? Scientists concluded years ago that the microorganisms found in S.F. sourdough are not endemic to the area and can be found all over the world.
A good B.P. calculator is a handy thing to have, especially if you're interested in your dough's hydration.
I have considered milling my own flour, but the miller's craft is so complex (and underappreciated) I have decided to leave it to the experts and use store-bought flour.
Hi mixinator
Thanks again for the heads up on the BP yesterday. You were clearly correct.
Just a question, when you say 'there is no end to...', what do you mean? I have no horse in the race and was only noting discussions I've encountered. And while I do get a sense of where you stand on the issue in the next paragraph, you never do say declaratively and I don't want to misinterpret. I can never be sure where truth and sarcasm diverge, without declaration.
Many different scientists reach many different conclusions at many different times for many different reasons.
While a good BP calculator can be a very useful tool, I find that if my hydrations are 50 or 100%, the math is simple enough for my simple skills. I guess that's why I assumed that the website's recipe included that, as it is what I would normally do. But I was clearly wrong to expect that.
And while I would not argue that a miller's craft is not a complex or underappreciated endeavore, I do think that a simple stone ground milling at home of whole grain is an honest persuit, and if one is seeking whole grain flour, that this would probably be better than most store bought 'whole wheat' flours (if for no other reason than freshness).
But what do I know. There might be reasons that home milled is inferior to commercially milled, but if there are such reasons, I am not aware of them. And I'm sure that there are commercial milling capabilities beyond home milled, but to what avail, I do not know (other than creating patent and clear).
Just my experience and opinion. Of course, I've been wrong before and I'm sure, will be again. Any clarification would be appreciated.
dobie
No problem! Stuff happens. Just to double check, I meant riff off of, not rip off. Take a recipe and play around with the ingredients to experiment.
Feel free to steal near-politan. I stole it myself from someone on the pizza making forum. :) best description for my pizza. AP or bread flour instead of 00, water, salt, yeast. Baked on a preheated (to 550) 1/2" steel plate under the broiler for about 3.5 minutes. As close as I'm gonna get and it's good.
The reason we're thinking of a Kitchen Aid is because of all the attachments. Meat grinder, pasta maker, etc... Is there anything else out there that's good and will cover as many bases as the kitchen aid?
It will depend where you are and your loyalty to that country. Living in the UK I like to "buy british" but these days, who knows where it's actually made or where the parent company is. I have a Kenwood Chef Mixer... (my wife has the K-Mix version)
One thing I've found is that the supplied dough-hook is rubbish - the dough ends up just clinging to the hook spinning round - until you crank it up full speed so that centrifugal force flings it off... I did manage to get a spiral dough hook for my chef - so it might be an idea to see if one is available for the KA too.
Do think about the attachments though - great to have, but how often will you actually use them? I've thought about some for my chef, but not bought any as I'm not convinced I'd use them enough to justify the cost.
-Gordon
oooh tugboat, yet another mistake on my part.
Even more apologies. And again, don't drink and post.
1/2 steel plate is what I covet.
I do have a KA and the attachments I find useful are the grinder and the pasta roller. The citrus juicer works well, but how often do you do the quantity that it is most useful for?
I know they have recently released a lot of new attachments and I am not familiar with them. I have however heard many negative comments as to how they beat the machine up to an early death (the mill in particular). So buyer beware.
dobie
Spiral dough hooks are available for both bowl-lift KitchenAid and Hobart mixers. They do a great job of kneading bread dough.
I've been equal parts smart and lucky, having purchased a used Hobart-era KitchenAid mixer on ebay. It was in good condition, has been well taken care of and runs great.
I'm leaning towards the tilt-head as I won't be baking a ton of bread. Maybe one batch per week, two if we make pizza. Saw some reviews that suggest that the bowl lifts are really loud and aren't very good for smaller work, and that the artisan series is plenty of mixer for a loaf or two per week. What is your all's experience? I also saw that the spiral dough hook is available for the 5 qt artisan mixer too.
Regarding the steel plate, I just bought one off of eBay for about $40. Just search for an A36 mild steel plate. That's what restaurant griddles are made of. No need to spend $150 on a "special made" pizza steel. Or you could go to a local metal shop and ask for an offcut. Works like a charm. I put the oven grate in the second from top, preheat at 550, and switch on the broiler (propping the door open with a wooden spoon to trigger the broiler). Cooks in about 3.5 minutes.
I re-fitted my Lincat oven with 3 full size steel plates - 10mm thick by 530mm x 330mm. They cost me £32 + VAT each. They've made a huge difference to bread cooking in it.
I washed & sanded them down, seasoned them by burning rapeseed oil on them (both sides) a couple of times. Been great ever since.
-Gordon
Dobie:
You answer all of your own questions so there's nothing for me to add.
mixinator,
ok, thank you
dobie