Loaves too dense!
Hoping someone can assist me - I know very few people IRL who bake bread, and nobody who works with sourdough.
I've been baking bread for about a year, and it's definitely been trial and error. I've been trying my hand at sourdough for a few weeks, using dehydrated starters I've bought online. I don't know a ton about the science and microbiology of it all. I've used a few different types from two different websites. The first couple, it got a little bubbly, but did not increase in volume at all. I wasn't sure if it was me or the starter, but I've since tried a starter I bought from another website (Ed Wood's site) and it definitely seems a lot more active. I was able to actually get my bulk fermentation to double in size for the first time.
Proofed per instructions, shaped into a round loaf, did the final loaf proof in a colander lined with parchment paper. Heated up the oven with a baking stone inside, and then transferred the loaf via the parchment paper onto a pizza peel, where I did the slash the dough, then transferred it to the stone. Sprayed it with water every few minutes for the first ten minutes. I did not get much of an "oven spring" at all. When I cut into it after it had cooled, it was incredibly dense, no bubbles or open crumb at all.
I feel like it sunk or something in between the loaf proof and transferring it to the baking stone. I feel like messing with it at all after it's done its final proof ends up with a small, dense loaf. Or is there something else going on that's causing it to not rise at all in the oven and have a nice, open crumb?
Any tips or ideas on what I'm doing wrong, or should do differently, in order to get a nice oven spring and a light, open crumb?
Thanks in advance,
Kerry
All looks ok to me. But you haven't given the actual recipe. Perhaps a different recipe might be I order? But first give the recipe and we'll take it from there.
The recipe is the traditional San Fran sourdough from Ed Wood's book. 1 cup starter, 1 cup water, 1 1/2 tsp salt, and 3-3 1/2 cups flour (using AP). Mixed, let the dough proof for 12 hours (I started at room temperature, around 70F, but saw that it had nearly doubled in about 4 hours and didn't want to be messing with it at 10pm, so put it in the fridge overnight). The next morning I dumped the dough onto the counter, let it rest for about 30 minutes, then shaped it, put it in the parchment lined colander, and let that proof for about 4 hours (first hour at room temp, and then about 3 hours in a humid warm box at around 85F).
While I let the oven heat up, I pulled it out of the colander using the parchment. I noticed it flattened quite a bit during that time before I put it in the oven. Almost like without the support of the walls, it doesn't maintain its shape. Which leads me to suspect I'm either not shaping it correctly, or not using the appropriate amount of flour.
Regarding the flour, I keep reading conflicting advice. The book I have suggests that if it flattens out when you dump the dough onto the counter before shaping, you should knead more flour into the dough before shaping. But other things I've read state that you want a very wet, loose dough that will form lots of CO2 pockets while baking.
What are others' experiences with that?
Hi there, I don't know if i can help however i have a similar background (know few bakers and no-one that made sourdough until my oh's mum) then I was lent a book - Ed Wood's world sourdough from antiquity, and had the same problem for my first half dozen loaves from his book. Also experienced similar problems. I can tell you what i think, although someone better than i can probably do better.
First the recipe, can i ask how you measured your flour? by cups or by weight? I have found his cups to be on the scant side and do much better when converting them to weight at 140g per cup flour. yet i still find them dense. And sweet. And the timings are COMPLETELY wrong. Well i say that, each starter is different and proofs at a different rate. Better to know your dough and take timing from how you know yours reacts. I stopped using his instructions while learning, used a different recipe to get the process down, and by the time i returned i could feel the dough better and adjust it to suit.
Second - Proofing, well overproofing. You stuck your dough in the fridge as it was doubled in size. A fridge does slow proofing but not stop it, so your dough would've come out of second stage overproofed. Over proofed dough takes 3 hours (approx) to return to peak activity, and only then starts rising the dough. so you actually only gave it a 1 hour final proof, if that makes sense. basically get to know your starter then it won't catch you out!
Third Shaping - when shaping dogh you aren't just getting the dough in the shape you want, you're also tensioning the dough (so it can hold its shape) and getting the gluten 'laying right' (sorry i am a novice too!). Watch a video on youtube or read some articles.
Finally Hydration - you mention loose doughs and sticky doughs - this is down to hydration - how much water is in your loaf - different recipes have different hydrations - i've seen some great explanations of hydration and why it matters and how to understand it on the forum, go have a look
Some hints - Don't use flour on your worktops, if you do atm - use oil - this prevents sticking and means you aren't adding to your overall flour content (making the situation worse)
Get to know your sourdough - find a recipe you like, I used this initially, however once i got it down, changed it as has a 150% hydration starter, which is great for a beginner as it is more forgiving, but more recipes use 100% hydration starter also changed the process a LOT over the last 12 months.
Read more - I've read articles on all aspects of bread making and found the trick really isn't the recipe but the whole process. I would read about something, then try the adaptation using my standard recipe to see how it effects it.
Post here - Show us pictures and share your wares - you'd be surprised what can be diagnosed from a picture of a rather sorry looking loaf. theres so uch great advice here.
Perservere - I started on my 'I will get this right' binge in february - And, making it weekly, wasn't happy until about september, It may take time. Now i am starting to look at other recipes and able to adjust them to how my dough reacts
Finally I repeat i am a novice too so please do look into these points further yourself. Hope this helps :)
Hi Kerry, just a couple of thoughts.
I tried to figure the hydration rate of your recipe, but I had to make a few assumptions to do so.
I assumed your starter was at 100% hydration, so it would be about 4oz of water and 4oz of AP. I attributed the AP flour to be at 4.75oz per cup for 3.25 cups.
With the cup of water at 8oz that gives 12oz of water divided by 18.25oz of flour equalling about 64% hydration, which is reasonable (if not a little low).
How do you tend your starter. When do you feed it, do you stir it, does it live on the counter or in the fridge, what's the hydration (or the process anyway)?
How are you mixing the dough (in the KA I assume, but how long at what speed?) Did you do any stretch and folds?
If your dough nearly doubled in four hours at room temp, I think your starter is reasonably active.
I think one possible mistake might have been letting it nearly double before hitting the fridge. I'm pretty sure that come the morning, it would have been over proofed, in fact, collapsed; which could lead to the problem you're having.
There are other possible issues, but let's leave it here for now.
I would suggest going on youtube a bit and watch some videos on people (pros and ams) shaping dough. That could be very useful.
I would also suggest you search TFL for sourdough recipes to get a feel for process' that people have found successful.
And I will steer you to a recipe that Abe posted recently (Hamelman's Vermont Sourdough) which is a solid, easy recipe to use when developing your chops. Abe also gives a fairly detailed explaination of his process, which could be useful. Here's the link, just scroll down until you find it.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/44371/sourdough-serendipity
And if you don't have any Rye flour yet, I would think WW or WhiteWW would substitute well.
I would also recommend that you go get a cheap digital scale if you don't already have one (makes everything much easier).
Let me know what you think.
dobie
I appreciate the feedback. I figured the latest problem I was having - I was overproofing the final rise. I've incorporated some of your suggestions (and am measuring ingredients now based on weight instead of volume). I've started using the folding method instead of kneading in my mixer. I have to say, it's magical seeing the dough come to life as you fold and rest it. I have a bit of sensory aversion and never thought I wanted to have wet dough covering my hands, but I've found that I love that feeling of plunging my hands in the dough and playing with it!
Anyway, my last few attempts have been quite lovely, with a more open crumb and a nice oven spring. It's a work in progress, but I'm getting there!
Question - can someone explain the importance of knowing what percent hydration your starter or dough is?
Thanks for all your help!
Kerry