Newbie baker needs some help
Hi. John here. We just bought a Panasonic. Enjoying it.
Posting here on breadmaker recipes because it seems to be the only place specifying breadmakers on the site.
Have made three loafs so far. All using recipes from the book.
Full white bread. Full whole wheat. and then 1/2 each. All came out pretty good, but there is certainly room for improvement. ( trying to find the right mix for the kids To love ) the Whole wheat loaves were a touch on the denser side. The full white was a bit crumbly.
I have checked through the site. Read through the forums. Recipes etc. and not fully finding the information I think i need. Tons of different recipes, but I cannot seem to find answers about what changing the main ingredients does. So here goes.
Ultimately Looking to have a whole wheat /multigrain bread experience. I know the kids will eat it if I get it fully right. Figured to work through wheat recipes and build up to it. Sticking to the full bread maker experience. Time constraints in life. Maybe as we get more experience we willbranch out past it, but for now We stick to our guns.
Some questions please.
What makes a loaf softer or spongier?less dense. ?
what effect does increasing the yeast have? (Up to the point where it goes wrong) ( Panasonic machine has pocket that holds the yeast and disperses it as the bread prepares. Not dumped into pan with other ingredients.
If I increase the butter what happens?
oil vs butter- what effect does it have on the loaf?
dry milk vs real milk? Does it matter?
Recipes I used.
flour. 3cups
water 10 fl oz
yeast 1 tsp
salt. 1.5 tsp
dry milk. 1.5 tbsp
butter. 1.5 tbsp
honey or sugar 1.5tbsp. ( honey in WW- Mix bread I used sugar with 2 drops of honey )
Thanks for any help!
john
Any enrichment of the dough (fat, milk, egg, sugar) tends to soften the texture of the bread. Fats (oil, butter, lard, etc.) are pretty much inter-changeable but strong flavored fat will change the taste. If you use real milk, it will increase the moisture level of the dough so subtract an equal amount of water. Make sure the milk is at room temperature. Judging the dough to tweak the amount of flour or water is the most important thing. Ambient temperature and humidity really do make a difference. The Bread Machine Magic Book of Helpful Hints and More Bread Machine Magic by Linda Rehberg and Lois Conway are very good bread machine cookbooks. Used copies can be had for 4 to 5 $ shipped on Ebay
Thanks.
i live in Florida. So you could say humid. house is kept in the 70's all year round. Just opened windows overnight for the first time this year. Finally.
temperatures. I had read that water temp did not matter so much- but using room temp. Milk so far has been dry stored in freezer. All flours are stored in freezer.
Should everything get get to room temperatures before mixing?
when I look at the dough after being mixed, it is firm. Moist. Sticky. Not soupy or rock hard.
What at effect does raising the yeast do?
i think for this next loaf I am going to bump up the butter and change dry milk for real. See how that goes.
Will check out out the books too.
Thanks again.
...and it'll bring the ingredients up to the desired temperature before starting your chosen cycle. That's why it seems to be sitting doing nothing for so long.
If you use milk it would be a good idea to scald it (heat it past 82°C/180°F) and cool it again before putting it in the machine. There's an enzyme in there which adversely affects the gluten structure (the scaffolding which gives the bread its strength and makes it 'lighter') and heat kills that.
Increasing the yeast in a machine recipe is not a good idea. The recipe will be designed so that a certain amount of yeast, given particular amounts of food, moisture and time, will make the best loaf that the machine can produce. Change one of those ingredients and you have to change them all and, with a machine program, you can't change the time.
One thing that's worth considering: to get consistent results from baking you need to be consistent in everything you do. That includes using consistent quantities of each ingredient. When measuring the amount of rice to go in a dish, using a cup is accurate enough but when measuring the amount of flour to use when baking it isn't. To make the best of your machine, which is extremely consistent, buy a set of scales and use recipes which list ingredients by weight. You'll save yourself a lot of head-scratching and eat a lot more good bread.
The temperature of the liquid, (water,beer,milk) should be warm. 80-90 degrees F. is fine. You should let the flour and any other ingredients you keep in the freezer come to room temperature as well. Bread flour will give the best results. Too much yeast will over proof the loaf and cause it to rise out of the pan flop over and burn around the edges. Vital wheat gluten will help give you a better rise in lean breads. Some higher priced bread machines will preheat the ingredients before mixing. My bread machine is an inexpensive model from the thrift store and doesn't do this. I mainly use it for mixing dough though it does bake a pretty good loaf as well. Hope this helps.
Alright. We are locked and loaded. Let things sit for a Bit. Found recipe on this site With more butter and used real Milk. More white flour than ww. And 1/3 cup oats. Honey used was more too.
Fingers crossed.
Agree, you need to add vital wheat gluten. I have recently made several loafs of Whole Wheat in machine and I added the vital wheat gluten. I also added oats.
Husband loves it. I found the recipe on Pinterest where I was looking for a whole wheat recipe, that did not use 1/2 whole wheat and 1/2 all purpose flour.
thanks all. This loaf came out great. Did not see tip on scalding milk. Will try that out.
What at does viral wheat gluten do?
i have been writing down everything going into each loaf so far. Measuring carefully. Looking to be able to replicate whatever i do that works. And move on from it being able to change a little at a time.
buggest change moving forward. Today I broke out the scale from the depths of the garage. Recipes I have found and been using we're in cups etc so worked out the conversions.
question. I measured the flour on the scale. Salt,yeast,butter , honey I used measuring spoons. Do you all put all of these things on a scale Too?
Water too? I have well marked flask That appears to work pretty well. For the milk I added I removed equal amount from water Using a syringe. That was fun. Took a minute Of tbsp to oz to ml Figuring.
i think this loaf will pass the kid test.
1 cup ww
1 2/3 cup white
1/3 cup oats
2tbsp butter
1.25 tsp salt
2tbsp honey
2 tbsp milk
10 oz water less 2 tbsp.
Ideally, everything should be weighed. Most domestic scales will have a hard time measuring very small quantities, however, so unless you have scales which can manage tiny quantities you'll need to keep using the tea/tablespoons.
It might help you to know that one millilitre of water weighs one gram and milk's weight is so close to being the same that the difference isn't worth bothering about.
Jon and sukkdogg
I just bought an AWS SC-2kg for $16 US with a resolution of 0.1g up to 2kg that I'm pretty happy with.
I don't want to step on this thread, but if anyone wanted a quick review, just ask.
dobie
It's more than twice that over here. But then, that's usually the case.
Jon
Any idea why that would be? Is it possible that an 'American Weight Scale' is actually made in the US?
I'll have to look at the fine print, but I just assumed it was made in China and thus would be more or less the same price in the UK.
As nice as it is, I don't know if I would pay double for it. But the other options available would then come into play.
dobie
They're shipped from the States, so they're priced to be cheaper with postage costing almost as much as the scale or quite pricey with reasonable postage cost. Whichever way you mix it, they all seem to end up costing over $60, equivalent. We might even get hit with import tax on top of that, because they're shipped direct.
So since my last posts I have made a couple of loafs. All coming out great. Used malt last week and today started with viral. That loaf is baking as we speak.
I have been using measuring spoons for the smaller items. My scale will handle it so I went to test weight of teaspoons etc. to see how to start weighing out these For my recipes. realized something. Not sure how it translates.
How do you convert a Tsp of differnet items to grams?
yeast
salt
malt
viral l.
had never thought about it. Tsp of salt is heavier than the other items. Etc.
do these have standards Weights For recipe conversion purposes?
Thanks!
So since my last posts I have made a couple of loafs. All coming out great. Used malt last week and today started with viral. That loaf is baking as we speak.
I have been using measuring spoons for the smaller items. My scale will handle it so I went to test weight of teaspoons etc. to see how to start weighing out these For my recipes. realized something. Not sure how it translates.
How do you convert a Tsp of differnet items to grams?
yeast
salt
malt
viral l.
had never thought about it. Tsp of salt is heavier than the other items. Etc.
do these have standards Weights For recipe conversion purposes?
Thanks!
...with the individual products. Teaspoonfuls of table, sea and kosher salt will all contain different amounts and the same is true of the others. Especially the malt. Is it fluid or powdered? There are tables out there which acknowledge this and list the different types separately.
What's 'viral'?
That is me not watching what I was typing. Vital wheat gluten. Hehe.
Malt is powder.
Go easy on that. You shouldn't need it at all and it can make your bread tough if you use too much of it.
http://guiltykitchen.com/2011/10/27/whole-wheat-machine-bread/
thanks!
Making a loaf a week. WW Loaf. Working one recipe. tweaking each week - pushing the envelope. Adding more and more rye to it. 2 weeks ago best loaf ever. Then last week Produced something that really was not good. Back to two weeks ago recipe. But this time loaf is sticky in the middle.
I am guessing that a deCrease in water is my best bet. recipe at hand:
Measure flour and liquids (water,milk)on scale. Everything else with measuring spoons.
204.97 g white
160.74 WW
147.12 rye
330 g water
37.5 g milk
2 1/4 tbsp honey
2.5 tbsp canola oil
salt 1 3/4 tsp
yeast 1.5 tsp
oats 3 tbsp
Malt 2 tsp
vital gluten 3.5 tsp
I cooked this loaf 2 weeks ago on the white setting dark crust. This week on multigrain.
Any thoughts?
sukkdogg
The recipe reads as just fine to me. Is this the recipe that resulted in the 'sticky in middle' loaf?
I don't know much about how bread machines work, but if you can't increase the bake time, then a reduction of fluid might be in order. But honestly, the hydration (about 72%) does not seem over the top for a bread that is 2/3 whole wheat and rye.
I am curious as to whether the malt is diastatic or non-diastatic.
More importantly, what were your changes that resulted in last week's 'really not good' loaf? What were it's failings?
Just curious.
dobie
Hi. my time is flying fast......days since I got on.
this is indeed the recipe that ended up with sticky in the middle .
diastatic. Yes.
One thing. not sure if it was clear. Milk used was liquid.
After baking Loaf sits overnight. Next morning slice it. Middle Quite sticky. Bread is yummy though.
origainnally I had used ww recipe in the manual, and then found a bunch here. Found one that worked well and have tweaked it every week. Started adding rye January. 1. Increasing every week. From 46g up to current 147. And decreasing white to keep same weight.
The loaf we did not like I pushed some envelopes. Reduced white even further and increased rye.
white 174
ww161
rye 177
i think this was the pushing point. too much rye. No real identity Of the bread.
Also went to 5 tbsp oats.
And 1tbsp flax seed
everything else was the same.
Also sticky in middle.
Big question. How much water (or milk) would you reduce? 10g? Is that enough to make a difference ?
Here is another biggie. Bread slicers? Cutting thin slices for sandwiches is far from easy. I am getting better at it but mid way through the loaf it seems to get away from me..
thanks again for all the help.
Sukkdogg
It sounds like you are doing things right, particularly in allowing the bread to rest a day or so to properly distribute the moisture content (particularly with the fairly high Rye content).
Please remember, I don't know much about how bread machines work. But if you had the option to increase the bake time (or perhaps temp), that might be my first try. I would definitely be interested in what the internal temp of the finished bake was.
Barring that, a reduction in fluid would be a reasonable attempt.
But I also suspect that between the Rye and the WW, that there is more than sufficient enzymes at work to not require diastatic malt. So, perhaps my first attempt would actually be to reduce (if not eliminate) that additive. My understanding (and experience) is that too much enzymic activity can lead to gumminess, tho I'm sure there is much more expert advice available on the subject.
As to slicing I can only offer this. If you turn the loaf on it's side to slice (for some unknown reason), accuracy seems to be increased. I have also seen two mechanical helpers available (of which I have no experience). One is a wooden frame that the loaf fits into that provides a rough guide for an appropriate slice, and the other is a knife that has a guide extending off to one side, that keeps the blade more or less at the proper distance. Sorry I can't offer you more than that.
dobie
Gumminess. Exactly. Perfect description.
Too many any people said use malt. For taste etc. I have no idea if I could tell it was not in the bread. Maybe I should start freezing one piece for taste tests later. Next loaf I am going to reduce water 10 G. See what happens.
Cooking time/heat. on on this Last loaf. I went from basic setting to multigrain. That only changes rise time. Bake time on the Panasonic is 50 min on non rapid settings for any bread.
After the next loaf I will put a thermometer in the middle. What temp should it be? I would wager it scalding hot. The bread sure is.
Bread on side no worky for me. once into the middle of the loaf kind of goes haywire. Maybe with reduced water that will help the total cutting experience.
Al,ost makes me want to do one now instead of waiting for my Sunday baking experience......
sukkdogg
Now, just because a lot of people recommend something, doesn't necessarily make it right for you in the given circumstances (including what I say).
There are two types of malt. Diastatic and non-diastatic. The diastatic is enzyme rich and the non-di has been heated (I believe the temp is around 170F) to the point that the enzymes are no longer active.
I have only seen di-Malt offered as a powder and nondi-Malt as a syrup (tho, they each might be offered in the other form, but I've never seen it).
Most commercial AP and Bread flours come with a proper amount of powdered d-Malt already mixed in. You can check the ingredient list on the bag, usually found as 'Barley Malt'.or 'malted Barley flour'.
Nondi-Malt syrup is often found in shops that offer Beer Brewing supplies. In bread, it is used for flavor and I suppose the bit of sugar in the syrup. Molasses is frequently swapped out for it when it's not available. They are different, but somewhat similar in effect and flavor.
I am not the master of malting, but I know a little bit about it from the diastatic malt powders I have made. I suppose any grain you can get to sprout can be malted, tho it is usually Barley or Rye.
Basically, once the grain is sprouted, it is dehydrated. If that is done at about 115F, my understanding is that you have not killed any of the enzymes and the malt will be fully diastatic (or enzyme active). If done to 170F, the enzymes are dead and the malt is non-diastatic.
There's a bit more to it than that, but those are the basics. All the info is available on this TFL forum.
Whole wheat and whole grain flours, tend to naturally have more enzymes than AP or Bread flours as apparently the included bran is more rich in them.
Since your recipe is basically 1/3 Rye and 1/3 WW, I can't imagine that you would need the boost in enzymes that a di-Malt will bring, and from personal experience, heavy on the enzymes can lead to a gummy interior. Perhaps nondi-Malt syrup (or molasses) for flavoring would be a better choice, if needed at all.
Mini Oven makes some good points further down about hydration and acids. I also don't think that reducing the hydration will get you far, but hey, prove me wrong. No reason to only bake on Sunday.
Most people will tell you the minimum finish temperature for common breads would be 195F. Most shoot for 200-205 and many prefer 210F. Depending on the bread, I'm usually going between 200-210F.
If your bread is not fully baked at the end of the cycle, you could always remove it from the bin and finish it on the rack of a hot oven (400-450F would not be uncommon).
dobie
So many threads. So little time. Thanks for the info on enzymes. There is so much info out there and on this site in particular, it can be hard to find the proper nuggets. It's all pretty overwhelming with so much info, and so many variables and outcomes. And different subjects that May or may not be important in any way, and tangents that can explode into entirely different subjects if you let them. ( like what the heck is a bakers percentage). Please don't answer that. I think my head might explode.
alright, I'm going in. next loaf no malt. Lets put it to the test.
as to finishing in the oven. One of the things I like about this machine is that it is a dump in the tin leave it and take it out Kind of thing. Still work involved, but each week gets easier and easier as I get more comfortable in the prep. All I have to worry about is being around when the machine goes beep. ( I have not as of yet left the bread in the machine overnight after finishing. I pull it out, sit it on a rack, and cover it with a towel. Cut in the morning after sitting out. Not a variable I am willing to play with yet. No idea if it would change anything. of course now that I think about it, maybe another 15-30 minutes sitting in the machine might be a good thing. Not sure why I did not even consider that. Rube goldberg effect? Or is that occums razor? Maybe because the instructions advise to take it out after beep. Hmmmm.
this week no malt. Depending on what happens, Next loaf extra time in machine. Malt or no malt, we shall see What happens this week. If I can keep it to working within the confines of the machine I think I would be happiest with that.
Same answer kind of goes for one loaf a week. Only so much time. Two kids. Both of us work full time(and more). Bread is for mornings and for sandwiches for one of my boys. Tues and wed are sandwich days. One loaf covers us for the week. Any more and I become the guy who brings his bread out in public. The crazy bread guy if you will. Or maybe the freezer full of bread guy. Small steps......hah.
sukkdogg
Yeah, you wouldn't wanna become one of those. Good luck with that. And if you do take your bread out in public, remember to keep it leashed. That was pretty funny.
But yeah, whatever works. Sounds like the 'no malt' worked out well. Please get back about the lower hydration next.
dobie
Just my opinion. With complex formulas it is harder to tell what works and what is causing a problem. Also, it is time consuming to change one variable at a time and re-bake the "same" bread. Are you creating your own recipes? Proven recipes from a cookbook were always my starting point when I was doing a lot of bread machine baking. When you find one you like, start changing it to suit your taste.
Hmm, Rube Goldberg praising the simple and cautioning the complex?
Oh, how ironic.
But I do agree with you Rube. Better to start basic.
Altho; as time consuming and perhaps boring (and difficult for me to keep to anyway), the changing of one dynamic at a time and baking 'the same' bread (but just not quite) over and over, I think is actually good practice.
Leading to repeatability, even more ironic ;-)
dobie
Have you ever encountered a more perfect encapsulation of the "Rube Goldberg philosophy" than a loaf of bread? Biga , sourdough, polish, per-ferments, and all the rest. Not to mention all the different ingredients that you can incorporate into a loaf of bread. It can get insane in a hurry if you let it. Bread deserves the ultimate "Rube Goldberg Award". It sure is good eating though, and a lot of fun!! :)
Yes, Rube
Even in it's simplest forms (matzah, pasta), dough is wonderfully Goldbergian in action. One act affecting the next (and, hopefully) in harmony to the desired result.
dobie
keep your rye low with this type of machine setting. When upping the rye you need to increase the hydration, not lower it and lower the amount of yeast for a slower rise. With higher amounts of rye you might want to consider adding more acid to the loaf, like a spoonful of vinegar or lemon juice Using buttermilk or yogurt for part of the liquids.
You may have missed that it's a machine recipe. Most of the timings are fixed.
I'd say that is one of the reasons to be careful about raising the rye amount without consulting a recipe for the bread machine, other ingredients will change and timing will have to be slowed down if it can be done. Fixed timings are like training wheels, good for a start but once outgrown, troublesome. Time to journey to the oven?
Wrong end of stick error.
and a flat choco cake. :)
Ok. Same recipe. No malt. Came out good. Much less gummy. Just a tiny bit Of residue on the knife after cutting next morning. Was also firmer. Easier to cut. Got past the halfway point before hard to handle. Temp was 210f. Tastes great!
Next I'll go no malt and drop water a touch. See if we can defeat the gumminess Even further.
sukkdogg
That is so good for the progress.
Kindly, I think Mini Oven makes a good point.
It seems you are outgrowng the machine.
Be brave. There is so much more control.
Just a thought, confirmed.
dobie
Thanks for all your kind words. Maybe one day I will branch out past my dear Panasonic, but right now one thing I do not have a ton of is spare time. right now I can take out what I need and in 15 or so minutes have it all in the machine and pressing the button. getting faster every loaf. All I have tried to do is make sure I am at home and awake for when the bell goes ding. Then take it out and cover it and go to sleep. i cannot imagine getting away with that kind of expediency after making the dough (in the machine) a and then doing whatever comes nexT before putting it in The oven. Trade off I knowingly accept. I am enjoying the exactness and chemistry that I have experienced so far. Also enjoying getting this loaf as perfect as I can.
sukkdogg
I totally get it and have no argument about such things.
Actually, I think it's great that you have come so far in refining the recipe.
In my world, it was Girl who brought in a bread machine, and she tweaked it much as you are doing.
I think any manner of getting fresh, real bread is significant.
Even tho I didn't own or operate our bread machine, my favorite part was waking up to the smell of bread that would be ready to eat as the coffee was dropping, all while we were just waking up.
All in all and within it all, I think it's a great thing.
Why Girl sent it off to Goodwill, I still don't know. But, honestly, I wish we still had it. Regardless, that was not my call.
But keep up the good work.
dobie
It might be worth taking a look at the "Artisan Bread in 5 Minutes a Day" (the name of a book) method where you mix a multi-loaf-sized batch of no-knead dough, keep it refrigerated and bake parts of it over the course of a week or so.
Little late in the week to report on my Sunday bread, but here I am.
two changes this week. Lessened water 15 g
also used a different yeast. Had to. Differnetnt store and I needed it.
Everything else the same.
So. Temp was 208.5 after cooking.
bread next day. No guminess at all. Bread still moist, or not dry. Not as tasty as the gummy loaf from last week Though.
not sure if it was the water, or the differnent yeast, or both. Definitely not as good though .
thay make any sense?
sukkdogg
That doesn't make any sense to me. 15g of water is quite minimal and tho I am surprised that the gumminess is gone it's hard to imagine it responsible for a change in flavor. But you can't agrue with results.
I would definitely try to go back to the old brand of yeast and see if that's the difference. While I haven't often found that changing yeasts results in a change of flavor, I have experienced it (however rarely). So that might be it.
I'm assuming all the other ingredients are from the same batch or at least the same source. It might not be a bad idea to post your current recipe as I know it's been thru a few adjustments and it is a little difficult to track thru the breadth of this post.
If not back to the old yeast for your next bake, then bring that 15g of water back in and see what happens.
Good luck, keep in touch.
dobie
I used a bread machine for many years. Had one in the early days (when they were really expensive) and ended up going through 4 of them over the years! I still have the Zojirushi Mini, but don't use it anymore now that I have more time to bake.
Re amount of liquid - have you looked at the dough when the machine is a few minutes into the kneading cycle? It should be coming together in a smooth ball and look quite stretchy. That's about the best amount of liquid. I don't think it's the amount of liquid that's making the inside of the loaf gummy. My bread has a lot of liquid in it and the inside is never gummy. More likely with the amount of rye flour you're using, the dough is actually a bit stiff and the ingredients are not all getting mixed well enough. I'd actually add a bit more liquid, myself.
As for additives - try a tablespoon or so of potato flour (not potato starch) or a bit of leftover cooked mashed potato. That helps keep it moist (especially an enriched white dough made with milk).
that makes sense. Maybe the gum miness left on the knife is dough not mixed. It disappeared in this last loaf though with water reduced.
Not sure about the taste change though. Would flavor change with reduction of water?
i am going to push the water back up halfway or so next week. Maybe up 10 g. Leave it in the machine for another 15 min after it goes beep. See how that tastes.
Last loaf. Perfect. Upped the water to 323g. Ended up 210 degrees. No gumminess. Nice texture.
and would you believe my wife tells me that she liked the gummy loaf better. Go figure .
sukkdogg
Well, damn'd if you do, damned if you don't.
But how was the flavor?
dobie
truth be told. She is right. I think the taste is still not as good. But everything else was perfect.
now I can either go back to 330 g water and maybe try the extra time in the machine( which truthfully is hard to keep track of )
Or maybe I keep the water where it is and add back the malt and see what happens.
Extreme fine tuning at its best.
Imagine when I move onto another type of bread. Uggg
kids are asking for the bread from the Cheesecake Factory. I don't suppose there is abread machine recipe that gets me close. Heh heh
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/3048/cheesecake-factory-bread
Ok tried that recipe. Just put it all in the machine. unmitigated disaster. For some reason all the flour did not mix. So loaf had crusting of four mix on the edges. New bag of flour. Wonder if that had something to do with it.
Loaf itself was waaaaaay too sweet. Even if the flour had come out right I think. Was almost like heavy cake Bread. Maybe will rethink. Maybe not.
baked a smaller loaf of my weekly special. 417g flour 300g liquid. Came out perfect. Tasty. yay.
Sorry, I have never been to The Cheesecake Factory or eaten their bread. Nor have I tried baking it. Maybe the Google machine has other recipe suggestions. It may be one of those breads that can't be readily duplicated in a bread machine. Good luck.
i appreciate tHe help. I suppose it is unreasonable to assume anything I put in the machine will come out perfect.
learned something new though. Stir the flour well. And now I know what 170 g of honey tastes like. Wakes you right up.
Not sure I want to tweak this even. onto the next.