December 16, 2015 - 2:40pm
No Discarding of Sourdough Starter
Well I'll try again. The post seems to have vanished. Thanks for the heads up. N
I hate to throw away starter. Here is what I think can work but I need advice. I'm thinking that when I want to use my starter to bake bread I can do the following.
First remove it from the fridge and let it warm up. Then, after calculating my recipe needs, split the starter into two batches, one for my bread and one to go back to the fridge. Feed each batch as needed then one goes in the recipe and the other back to the fridge., So, no discard, no waste.
Does this make sense? Thanks.
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Welcome to the forum MickeyD
Question or statement? Or did the gremlins eat your post (they do at times).
dobie
Here's what I do.
MickeyD
BobS' link leads to good advice in my opinion.
Within reason, things are very flexible.
dobie
MickeyD
Many people do it many ways. I think they are all valid as long as the starter lives.
Personally, (usually, but not always) I don't divide it until after the bloom of refreshment. I usually take it out of the fridge like you say, and eventually feed it and let it have it's way.
When it's about 150% raised, then I split it. But I think either method would work fine. I'm just lazy.
At that point, I just use what I need (per my recipe) and whatever is left, goes in the fridge.
There have been a lot of good discussions about how to use 'discard', and I'm sure you can find them with the 'search' bar on this forum. If not, let me know, and I will help you.
Everything from pancakes, waffles, english muffins, onion rings and etc. All good stuff from my experience, and no waste.
dobie
Thanks Dobie and Bob S, and thanks for the supper detailed information. I like a starter with a name!! I've been baking bread for a while but the I am new to the sourdough starter method. After creating the lithe life I hope to keep it alive and useful.
I'm glad MickeyD
Yes, the best part of starter, is that 'Life' goes on.
I have yet to name my starter, but it might be a good idea to do so. However, I am thinking in the femine context. After all, it is the 'mother'.
Perhaps, 'Pearl'. The gem of irritation and all things fine (sand).
dobie
I like Pearl. Sort of also connotes a historical name which kind of fits with starter. I may have to honor BobS for giving me that idea and christen mine Bob.
MD
There you go, sounds good.
'Bob' can also be the short for Barbara, if that works.
dobie
Mickey, not sure I understand your strategy. You take the starter out of the fridge, then you split it, then you refresh one batch to use for bread, and the other gets refreshed and goes into the fridge. Do you use different ratios for the different destinations? What I did tonight was to take the starter out of the fridge ( last fed last week) and discarded all but 12 grams. Added 12 grams water and 12 grams of flour to get 36 grams of 100% hydration. Took out 8 grams of the refreshed starter, added a gram or two of flour, and put that in the fridge ( I like the fridge starter to be slightly drier and have a little more food, I think it will let it last longer in the fridge ) That left me with 28 grams of refreshed starter that stays on the counter tonight - I will need 25 grams in the morning to make the bread, the other 1 -3 grams will be lost - washed out of the container. I can't get to no waste, since I can't count on getting every last gram out of the container, but I can get a pretty minimal waste by determining what I need to bake the next day, add that to the grams I want to go into storage, and divide the total by 3 - to find the amount of starter that I need to begin the refreshment.
I'm new to using starter and trying to figure out if that is even a good idea. Yes I was thinking that I would refresh the fridge batch in typical fashion (if there is one) and the refresh the bread batch based on the recipe I'd be making. You are right there probably would be some waste but I was thinking less than otherwise. After reading your method along with others, I think maybe I'm just going around the barn to get to the same result. I really like your idea of adding a little extra flour before going back to the fridge.
For my main starter I keep somewhere between one hundred grams or so and a few hundred grams of it in the refrigerator. When I need to cleave off some, if there is enough, I just use that and let the remainder dwindle down. When there isn't a lot left, I mix up a few hundred grams of new starter from some of that refrigerated discard.
After the starter is ripe, I'll scale out what I need for the next dough, and the remainder goes back into the container with the rest of the refrigerated starter. Then I use a rubber/silicone scraper to fold the new into the old, cover it and back into the refrigerator again. I never run out.
The same holds true for my rye starters. All of these starters can and have lasted weeks without refresh.
alan
Alan,
That sounds like the same basic idea but in an even easier format. I love the simplicity of it.
Thanks!!!
As they can go for longer between feeds when kept in the fridge. My schedule...
Feed the mother starter (never build too much, about 100g - 150g), allow it to bubble up by half and then store in the fridge. Can last for quite a few weeks between feeds this way. Each time it comes to baking i'll take a little off to create the starter asked for in the recipe (this allows you to also build to different requirements such as flour and/or hydration all the while keeping your mother starter 100% whole rye). When the mother starter in the fridge runs low i'll take it out, feed it, allow it to bubble up by half and return it to the fridge etc.
No discard.
And should you ever find, for whatever reason, you have discard then turn it into pancakes or waffles.
My starters live in the fridge.
When I need them I take them from the fridge and use them directly into the dough. Top-up the starter right away and back into the fridge it goes.
Or - when I need more than I have in the jar, I take enough out, add double flour + water, then let that stand for 4-6 hours until bubbly then use it. (While topping up the starter jar and back into the fridge it goes)
Actually, these days I often leave the topped-up starter jar on the bench for a few hours before putting it back into the fridge.
I have white wheat, spelt and rye starters that I maintain this way. I also bake 5 days a week, so know my starters are very healthy and active, however even after a recent 10-day holiday, I didn't do anything different - they lived in the fridge all that time and "just worked" when I needed them.
-Gordon
It's just dawned on me (better late than never) why you are able to get an all night bulk ferment with your spelt sourdough recipe and I couldn't as it turned into mush.
You use your starter straight from the fridge not recently matured whereas I build the starter and then used the active starter in the recipe making it work much quicker. Just dawned on me reading through your maintenance schedule.
A question... when you re-feed do you give it any bench time before refrigerating so the yeasts are active or do you put it straight back into the fridge? I favour the first way. I like to get them lively, but not so they've fully fed, before slowing them down. It will also make our starters different where mine is probably more yeast and yours LAB? But i'm not sure exactly how the different methods change the starters.
I usually take my starter out of the fridge and take what I need to build my levain. Feed the starter and put it back in the fridge.
Thanks All,
So many good ideas and ways to handle. I never thought of it before but learned here from some of you that taking out the starter you need for a recipe and adding it to the mix , then letting everything ferment is much like feeding it first then adding it,
weeks at a time - plus no discard. You control it rather than it controlling you
No Muss No Fuss Starter
MickeyD
You can't go wrong considering whatever dabrownman says about starters. If there is a 'God of Starters', dbm is in direct contact with him (or her).
This discussion has allowed me to rethink some things.
This is not to disparage anyone else's practices, just for myself personally.
Regarding discard, it's not that I can't afford to toss out a few grams of flour here and there, but rather (for me) it is to respect the grain and the earth that it came from. Kind of like 'only kill what you will eat'.
Again, no disrespect to anyone else, just my take.
dobie
Built my original starter with Debra Wink's Pineapple Juice Solution, and refresh my stiff general purpose starter via dbm's schedule. I only refresh it every 4 months or so. I didn't mention that starter in my prior comment.
alan
Starter Goddess! Her Golf Ball Brown Paper Bag Starter on top of the fridge is a classic and one of my favorites since it is easy and takes no maintenance for a week of 'bag it and forget it' non work. But I am catching up fast. I bet this week's starter experiment of Lucy's was a new one even for MO - 'Witch Yeast' from The Ladies of The Trinity M. E., Church of Delphi, Indiana 1907 church cookbook. For the life of me I can't figure out how it works....it shouldn't..... but it did.
dbm
You are a hoot.
For clarity, I didn't say you were a 'God of Starters', only that you were in touch with such. And you are right, Mini is truly a 'goddess of starters', if ever there was one.
Where is she by the way? Laos, if I understand right? I guess she's not online, haven't heard from her lately. I wonder how long until her return online.
Now, of course you know I'm gonna beg you for the link to the 'The Ladies of The Trinity M. E., Church of Delphi, Indiana 1907 church cookbook', if you could be so kind.
TIA
dobie
get to Witch Yeast. I found it in Claytons book but this is an exact reprint word for word from the book with no attribute to Clayton for some reason
http://www.thecookinginn.com/yeast.html
You are supposed to make Methodist White Bread with it. I made ancient sprouted grain near white bread with figs and pistachios. It took me 3 times to get it to work and there is a trick not readily apparent or specified. You have to think like a turn of the century Old Methodist Lady Baker with a bit of Clayton in her:-)
Just can't play by the rules, can you (you old Methodist Church lady you).
Only kidding, I will give it a look and a try before I beg further.
Thank you dbm,
dobie
dbm
First off, that is one very interesting link. Reading thru the recipes until I got to 'Witch Yeast' (which I did willingly), really bent my brain. We have truly come a long way in terms of specifying quantities in recipes.
That being said, I put my best version of a 'turn of the century Old Methodist Baker' hat on, and couldn't come up with much.
Mind you, I would (and probably will) just try it, but the fact that it took you three times in attempt for success (and the fact that I can't discern much insight), makes me question whether or not that persuit would be worthwhile.
For anybody who is curious, here is the recipe.
Witch Yeast
l cup mashed potato
1/4 cup sugar
2 tsp salt
l cup warm water (105-115)
Stir together in a quart glass jar, cover with a cloth and leave in a warm place (80-85 degrees) for two days or until it ferments, bubbles up, and smells pleasantly sour. Use, or seal and refrigerate. Can be used in the white bread or in other sourdough recipes if you choose.
Recipe From: A cookbook published by the Methodist Church women of Delphi, Indiana.
I guess one might ask what exactly is meant by a 'mashed potato'. Does it have milk (or other dairy, even butter) in it, as would be normal nowadays? Perhaps the skins are still on when mashed. Either might be the key, but the rest of the ingredients and procedure seem to offer little left to interpretation.
So please, tease me no more dbm. What is the key to success with Witch Yeast? Or at least a clue, please.
dobie
ps - you know how unfond I am of admitting ignorance, but who be 'Clayton'?
btw - page 2 ain't so bad either.
god from 1973. His book, The 'Complete Book of Breads has about 500 bread recipes in it but not one photo of any. With a book like - that you only need one.
A hint says you can make the bread on page 101 with this starter. When I say it was Methodist White Bread I lost interest. But that recipe was the key to figuring out what I was missing.
Mashed potatoes is the weak sister here. What kind are they? Left over ones with salt, pepper, butter and sour cream in them - the way my left over ones seems to always be. I always leave the skins on after peeling potatoes forever in the Navy. Well those didn't work.
The recipe for the bread starts of by saying to boil 5 potatoes in 3 cups of water till tender, pour off the water but reserve it. This is what I do for a lot of breads that have potato in them. For the life of me I couldn't see how boiling a cut up potato, pouring off the liquid, mashing the potato, putting some of the potato water back with some salt and sugar could make a starter. The 12 minutes of boiling killed everything in the potato and water. The salt and sugar are both put in stuff as preservatives to keep wee beasties from growing. But what the heck, I gave that way a go and sure enough - nothing. Everything was killed and then made sure nothing would grow in 2 days because there was nothing to grow. So the hint with the bread recipe was a wild goose chase too.. .
Well the only thing left is raw potato and water with some salt and sugar. I chopped the potato in a mini food processor and then mashed it.
It didn't dawn on me that the only place the wee beasties could come from was the potato since there isn't supposed to be stuff in drinking water with chlorine in it or anything in salt and sugar which is why they never go bad. You can tell Clayton never made this starter or his directions would have been better.
This is as good a white starter as I have ever made. Should make some good panattone for New Year's
Thanks dbm
I'll start one up in the morning.
As always, your logic is impeccable.
B Clayton is now on my library list as well, regardless.
Your mashed sound just like mine. Skins on, smashed more than mashed (I'll assume) and if not sour cream, yogurt or (dare I say) even buttermilk or kefir. Don't forget some herb.
The thought of you peeling potatoes in the Navy reminded me of those old Abbott and Costello movies with the Andrew Sisters. 'There's a tomata in the potata bin'.
Thanks very much, I appreciate it.
dobie
Genius!
I would've wasted a lot of potatoes before I thought of that...!
Me too Mike
Not to mention the extra added effort that would have been in vain.
Of course, I would have had some mashed potatoes to eat as well.
Once again, dbm teases, then pleases. Keeps me on my toes.
dobie
today if it ever proofs. It is very cold in the kitchen, 65 F, and it has already been 5 hours with not much to show for it. I'm not using the heating pad for the proof and it came out of a 21 hour cold retard in the fridge. I'm thinking it might take 11 hours like my first YW bread.
'Patience Grasshopper' comes to mind!
Very funny dbm, I get it.
My potato is on the counter and the grater is nearby.
Yet, I have hemmed and hawed all day, regarding; wash or not, peel or not?
Thoughts?
dobie