December 5, 2015 - 4:28pm
glossy Sourdough ??
So the last two times i've made sourdough they have come out looking glossy inside. The outside had a nice crust but still slightly glossy. The people i work for think its undercoked and are ify about serving it to the customers. With apps like yelp etc they don't want to get a bad reputation since it a small town bakery. Is there a way to fix the glossy look? It is safe to serve? Im sooo confused, i am use to French bread or Italian but sourdough is a whole new area for me to learn about. Any help/ tips would be greatly appreciated. :-)
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How long is it cooling? Are you taking the internal temperature of the bread before removing it from the oven?
After I'm done there is about 4 hr window before it goes out to sale. as to the internal temp it was reading at 196.
That might be one problem. For sourdough bread you should shoot for over 200 degrees.
to 210 F. 196 F is too low by quite a bit
If you use a wet/slack dough and bake hot for around 35 mins, as we do (without going into unnecessary details) you'll get a glossy crumb, if its cooled fully itll stay glossy and be fine. AND, in some artisan baking books they actually look for that :) If your in doubt you could push the internal temp to 200 as it maxs out @ 210
the fine membranes between holes really should be shiny in fact, if its well cooked and cooled, Naturally the denser the loaf the less visible it will be
What is the hydration? A high hydration often leads to a glossy crumb which is often the goal.
Yes Kathy
I have often heard of a glossy crumb to be not only desirable, but in fact, difficult to attain. The glossy exterior is for others to explain.
Lighteningchild,
As Maverick says, check the internal temp. If above 195F, it is baked and all things being equal (good sanitation and ingredients), should be quite safe to serve. I've never heard of otherwise.
Altho you might want to bake it darker or to a higher internal temp, that is up to you (and the boss) to decide. Present to the boss the bread baked best according to you (and take no short cuts).
My recommendation would be for you and the people you work for to apply the old 'taste test' method. The proof is in the pudding (as is said) and you and then the facility need to establish your standards and then stand by them.
Yelp be damned (at least in the conception of the bread). You shouldn't be driven by fear.
What do you think of the bread? Then, what do the boss' think? Then, what do the customers think?
You could offer samples to select regulars for their opinions. If the customers don't like it, then it's back to the drawing board.
If the boss' want to bring in a qualified consultant, then welcome them to.
That is what I would do.
dobie
Thank you for all that info! Thats what i want to plan after the holidays to sit down and figure out exactly what they what their bread to look like, how many slashes/docks they want..etc..etc.. The recipe i have been following is for a home static oven. I've been using a convection oven at work even have a proofer which cuts the time down tremendously. I did make a batch and baked it just how the recipe said but for me it was to dark looking.
Lighteningchild
Having a sit down to discuss goals with all concerned is a very good idea.
I would suggest that when you 'follow' a recipe, if it fails as directed the first time used, that you 'flex' your procedures and techniques as best you can so that it doesn't fail the next time. It might take a few tries, but remember, you are the one in control and not the recipe, so utilize that power.
There are so many possible fluxuations between your set up and the one used by who ever wrote the recipe (oven calibration, flour and water quality, etc) that actually I would think it unlikely for a recipe to repeat exactly, given the different circumstances.
Regarding hydration rates; for a nice simple 'lean' recipe as for most baguettes, it is fairly simple. You divide the total weight of water by the total weight of flour. If the recipe has 2 lbs of water and 3 lbs of flour, then the hydration is 66.66%.
If you're using a starter, you need to know the hydration % of that, to properly attribute how much flour and water to the recipe totals. If you start enriching the dough with butter, eggs and other things, it gets a little trickier, but it can be done.
It seems that you have a nice, open, glossy crumb and the flavor and degree of sour is to everyone's satisfaction. So you've accomplished the hard parts. I agree with Kathy about internal temp. I like to see 205F ideally for baguettes.
If your's are reading 196F internal and yet are too dark, the oven is too hot. Are you using steam in the oven?
I do hope somebody chimes in with how to either create or avoid a glossy crust (with no washes or coatings). I've never really considered it one way or the other, but I'll start paying attention. I'm not sure why it would be considered detrimental, but there may be reasons.
Good luck.
dobie
I'm not quite sure for the hydration %. I'm still learning how to use the bakers %. I'm so use to (as well as my bosses) store bought bread and sour dough bread I'm use to the SF Sourdough bread. That is what my boss is use to as well so they are expecting that tangy/sour flavor from the sourdough bread.
From a marketing perspective, if you serve people something that doesn't fit their expectations, be it bread or anything else, you leave yourself a lot more open to negative reactions than if you (try to) shape those expectations. So, you might consider telling customers what the bread is like, showing them and offering samples rather than leaping straight to changing the bread.
Arjon
I agree. If the customers ain't buyin', it ain't flyin'.
But I will assert that one should not develop something new in fear.of rejection (altho that rejection may well be on the way).
Of course, it's always smart (before offering for sale), to test market first, but you've got to dare to be great to be so (even tho you might fail along the way). I'm sure some guru or another said that.
Failure ain't so bad. I've done it thousands of times, yet I keep plying (with a few successes here and there).
Is a life without risk worth living? And tho I can't recall who might have said that before, I think it a very good question to ask one's self.
That said, even worse than a fear of failure, is a fear of success. Now, I'm sure somebody said that before (but again, I don't know who).
'We have nothing to fear but fear itself', FDR said that.
Bread for thought (I said that).
dobie
I never said to shy away from trying to market something different. Rather, I suggested some basic steps that might help improve the chances of successfully introducing a type of bread that's new to the OP's market area. And also to promote getting feedback that might be useful in tailoring the product to be more acceptable and popular in that area.
Arjon
What I meant to say was actually that I totally agreed with you and I apologize for not making that clearer. Upon re-reading, I can see where you felt otherwise.
Then I went on, perhaps a little overboard, trying to boost Lighteningchild's confidence (with the 'not in fear' rant), but I did not mean to imply that you felt otherwise.
I thoroughly agree with your ideas about ways of introducing new products to one's market. It is sound advice, and I apologize that my post seemed different.
My bad.
dobie
This is what the bread looks like when they cut into it this am. It had the glossy look still and they decided not to put it out.They did taste it tho and said it tasted excellent, so instead its being toasted and made into toasted bread chips for like dips etc. I like the airpocketsit has but like i said they were still nervous about selling it
Lighteningchild
I just saw the pic of your bread. Tell the owners that if they are nervous about selling it, they should start giving it away free. Seriously.
I don't know how many baguettes you make in a batch, but it is time to give a few away to select steady customers who might appreciate such a bread, and get their feedback.
The crumb looks beautiful. The crust does appear a little thick and if the internal temp was 196F with that crust, reducing temps would seem logical to me. Perhaps dropping 25-50 degrees when you put the dough in and perhaps as much again 10 minutes in. I don't know your procedures, but this would be typical to my experience.
If you have the option to introduce steam for the first 8-12 minutes, that would be pretty typical as well. If you can turn off the convection feature for the steaming time and then put it back on after the steam, that would be pretty typical too (at least in my experience).
At the risk of sounding like a broken record to the regulars on TFL, I would suggest you try adding 15% of the flour total as some form of whole grain or whole wheat flour. White whole wheat would be good. I think you might find the flavor even better and yet the dough and bread should respond about the same. Just a thought.
I think the bread looks really quite good (tho it would be nice to see a pic of a whole baguette, particularly one that showed the 'glossy' exterior). Of course you could do a few tweaks, adjust the oven time/temp (try for an internal 205F or so) with a crust you like, think about the steam and possibly a little whole wheat in the dough, but I think you are pretty much there.
If it tastes anywhere near how good it looks, it will fly off the shelves.
It is your bosses' business and reputation, I understand, but it soon will be time (if it isn't already) to get some customer feedback. As MonkeyDaddy suggests, maybe put a basket of free samples (just like in the pic) for people to knibble on as they wait and see what they say.
dobie
Sorry for the late response. We've been dealing with flooding and 15" of rain in two days, so a lot has been going on here on the coast. The owners are wanting rounds (boules) at 10oz each. so they aren't baguettes and not really a try boule i think. The recipes that they gave me was one that their nephew made when he came a visited them (link to the recipe at the bottom of reply. and the size of his boule was about 1# if not more. Which in return gave avery nice product, but what im fearing is that the size they want me to produce the crust will darken a lot faster then the crumb could finish cooking/setting up. I follow the recipe exactly even with the baking stone and pans of water. The only thing i dont do is use yeast, i use the starter to replace the yeast.
http://www.artisanbreadinfive.com/2013/10/22/the-new-artisan-bread-in-five-minutes-a-day-is-launched-back-to-basics-updated
LC
If the exterior becomes too baked before the internal temp is what you want, I would think reducing oven temp would be the solution.
I see from the link, that the recipe calls for an oven temp of 450F, which I would think satisfactory for a 10oz boule. But your oven might be off in calibration (as they often are) and a reduction to 425F might prove useful.
If I may suggest, lighten up on the 'following exactly' part. There are just so many variables, I think it best to adapt what works for you.
dobie
Your bread looks fine to me - however as someone who make & sells sourdough bread daily, I've had my fair share of people who like this, don't like that, etc. and in-general big holes don't do that well for me (they don't hold butter, honey, etc.) so a lot is down to personal taste and what works in your area. Sourdough doesn't have to have big holes! That's not a defining characteristic of sourdough - just (mostly) a side effect of a high hydration. You can make sourdough without the big holes.
It makes good bruchetta though...
-Gordon
Gordon
You are absolutely right about that.
I know you know this, but just to state it, one can make denser crumb sourdoughs even with high hydration and long cold retards, it's all in the shaping (degassing).
I like cutting open crumb baguettes horizontaly (legnthwise, in half, not perpendicular slices) to make a hero or sub type sandwhich where the open crumb creates little containers (on the bottom half) for condiments to nestle, yet don't leak.
But cut perpendicular, I understand the issue. It can get messy.
As you say, one needs to know their market.
dobie
Drogon/Gordon
Ive made both some with big hole and some without big hole but its something that this townfolk isn't use to buying here. they would go to the store and buy the bread there. Thats what the owners did they cut up the sourdough and was going to toast it to make for bruchetta or even toasted bread "chips" for dipping etc.
Lightningchild, where are you baking? I'm assuming somewhere in the US, since you're worried about Yelp ratings.
I agree with dobie and Arjon above: First of all, Yelp be damned. I've never found Yelp reviews to be helpful - they typically seem like rantings from grammar-deficient 10th graders and rarely contain anything I can use to formulate an opinion about whatever I happen to be searching for. Not sure what your clientele base is like - new upstart business trying to establish a niche? Old and respected in the neighborhood? Somewhere in between? If you're old and respected there will always be a percentage of folks who leave if you try something new, as humans are creatures of habit - change the routine and it rattles us.
But if you're a newer business you've got nothing to lose. Your bread looks awesome! If you spend any time on this forum at all, you'll see that big holes and a glossy crumb are things that people want to happen - and the people that post here are more bread-savvy than most you'll ever meet (a condition I hope to attain too if I keep learning from these folks, God willing). Play up the "artisan" angle and go for the gusto! If you've got one of those slate/whiteboards in the entry of the store you might put something on like, "New Menu Item - fresh Artisan bread, now made on the premises!"
And by all means, keep a plate of samples at the ready - I personally can't resist tasting stuff like that when I walk into a store. And if it tastes as good as it looks you'll win over the old customers and spawn new ones too.
I'm excited for you. Good luck and keep us posted on the results!
MonkeyDaddy
Im in the pacific northwest (PNW), the Oregon Coast where the air has a lot more moisture then normal. Most of the people that are here on the coast are more older/retired. Then in the summer is more tourist people coming from all over. The owners have been doing a tasting plate of the bread when its something new that i bake. Right now though it is hard to tell what people would like and not like because its mostly the full time people in town. I made cinnamon raisin bread the other week and no one bought it but i'm sure if i make it during the summer people would buy it.
LC
I'm not doubting that you made and no one bought cinnamon raisin bread, but I know if I walked into an honest, small bakery and saw it looking good, I'd buy a loaf without a blink (and perhaps a second for a friend).
What breads are popular with the locals this time of year?
dobie
To be honest Dobie
i really dont know. i mean for thanksgiving we offered fresh baked dinner rolls. Only had one order come out of it. What i really think is that they are not advertising enough. They put up flyers on the window and a post here or there on Facebook but thats about it. Most people i have talked to don't know that they have fresh bread now, since i just started baking it about two months ago. Hoping the sit down meeting we can get stuff rolling.. (fingers crossed)
LC
I'm a little confused. Is your establishment a bakery, or are you baking within a restaurant? How long has it been in existence?
Not that it much matters, but I find it surprising that people aren't jumping at 'real' bread.
Time to pass out samples or 'amuse bouche' I would think. Word of mouth (tongue in cheek) is powerful, yet inexpensive advertising.
Have they agreed to the sit down? Is it scheduled?
Good luck and keep us informed.
dobie
It's a bakery/pastry shop. They just opened up in Aug of this year and is already worried about how much product they will be making in the summer. Summers on the coast can get a bit crazy. Yes we are going to have a sit down end of Feb when they get back from Hawaii. haha
The interior looks fine but I can't see the picture of the crumb. I agree that while the temperature is fine, lean breads tend to be better cooked over 200. I am guessing that the shine on the crumb is from steaming or retarding. In San Francisco a lot of the bread is shiny.
Hi Maverick
Good to know a lot of SD bread in SF is shiney. It's something I've never thought much about.
I too, was wondering if the glossy crust was caused by either steaming, not steaming, or retarding or not? I don't know myself and I don't know Lighteningchild's methods regarding them.
By 'crumb', did you mean crust? Man, I hope so, otherwise I've using the wrong terminology repeatedly.
dobie
thin crispy, shiny, blistered crust with moderately open and uneven crumb where the holes are glossy is the mark of the perfect SF sourdough bread
That's the SF sourdough I remember growing up with when I lived in California.
Sorry for the late response.
We've been dealing with flooding,7 landslide between a 3 mile stretch on the main highway and 15" of rain in two days which cause the town to literally become an island. We were cut off from the other towns for two days until some kind of repairs were done to the roads..
Thankyou For all your replies and information!
I'll Keep you updated and and post pics of future breads!
LC
Fifteen inches of rain in two days? Yeah, I'll bet it's a little moist right now.
Stay safe, take your time and soldier on.
dobie
with this storm we have today until saturday is another 7" of rain
LC
I feel for you. Soon you might find yourselves perched up on the tops of trees in a driving rain.
I hope not.
dobie
with this storm we just had only brought 4" of rain but its suppose to keep raining until xmas.
Does give a different crumb to yeasted breads we've become used to. This glossiness is a characteristic of many sourdoughs depending on the recipe.
I have finally worked out the sourdough recipes!!! i had to reduce the oven temperature and they are selling as fast as i can get them baked!!!
Lighteningchild
That is great news. I'm very glad for you.
Keep in touch on future endeavors.
dobie
I just read through this thread and the update made me so happy for your success! Keep up the great work!