How to get super chewey bread?
Hi all,
I am pretty new to this game, but having a great time learning. I have been making sourdough and ciabatta bread and getting some decent results. The one thing that seems to be lacking though is some toughness in my crumb.
This week I tried twice to improve on this but with no luck. I'm getting a nice crackly outside, and a perfect flavor. The crumb is fairly irregular ( could be better ) but the crumb itself is almost like a loaf of store bought white bread its so soft.
I would like to make bread that is so chewy its like those shoe leather rolls they serve at Panera bread co.
Here is my recipe if anyone wants to examine. I am guessing my technique is the issue though.
Starter is
1/8 tsp yeast,
water
flour.
12 hour rest on the counter.
It looks goopy and bubbly and smells like beer so I think this is ok.
Bread is
1.5C water
2 tsp suger2 tsp salt
tsp yeast
3 1/4 c flour
3 TB gluten
1 TB EVOO
I mixed the starter, yeast, sugar, and salt in the mixer then incorporate the water and flour. Mixed for 25 min total, about 10 min of that was with all ingredients in.
When the dough came out it was fairly sticky and very stretchy.
1 hour rise.
Letter folding
1 hour rise
Letter folding, then loafed
1.5 hour rise
Baked on stone in preheated oven 425 for 28 min.
Looking forward to hearing your ideas.
Thanks in advance.
to make it very chewy.
Drop the EVOO, don't develop the gluten in the flour. Steam for most of the bake and lower the temperature of the oven. Shorten the fermenting time and don't fold the dough.
And if that doesn't work you can sit a heavy object on the loaf while it is cooling.
.
:) If nothing else the new guy brings out the comedian in everyone right...
You're from Hollister, MO and can take it. I've seen the rocks y'all live on. :)
Mini could you elaborate on a couple thing for me.
I think I get the oil thing and the steam.
Dropping the EVOO because oil softens the bread.
More steam because water conducts heat better than air. Right??
What I dont understand is what would lowering the oven temp do?
Also I am confused when you say not to develop the gluten, skip the folds and shorten ferment time. I thought that all of those things were to make the dough more elastic. Could you explain why this will give me more chew?
Thanks
into my court. And I thought you'd ask me what heavy object I'd park on a hot loaf. Touché
More steam especially past the first 15 minutes also lowers the oven temperature and add to a thick chewy crust. Lowering temp might prevent a nice oven spring for more dense chewier mouth feel.
Let me chew on the elastic dough gluten thingy for a while. More chew, you did say you wanted to wrestle with it.
How close to bubble gum did you want to go? :)
I suppose you could leave out the yeast.
Ok, I will try the extra steam today when I bake. I dont want to get the oven temp too low though. Dense is really not what I am going for. The breads that I am trying to replicate have a fairly airy dough, but the crumb is still very stretchy.
Even the ciabatta from our grocery store has a fairly leather like crumb to it. Not as tough as bread co's but certainly more than what mine does.
A tougher crumb is what you're looking for and I think you will find it using bread flour instead of AP.
You could try 50% of each and if it heads in the right direction, you know you're on track. You are already making bread that many of us dream about so your skills are fine and so is the method.
Try just changing part of the flour and see what happens. :)
Awwww.. Your a sweetie :) I did pick up a sack of bread flour which is going to todays batch. I will report back this evening when my loaf comes out.
Mini O
Drop the EVOO (I'm not shouting)?
I understand the sarcasm, but wouldn't that help the chew?
dobie
addition is more than likely giving the crumb those fine soft bubbles (after developing a poolish) along with degassing and folding of good gluten development to reduce bubble size. Can also explain why the extra gluten didn't turn the dough gummy, the presence of oil while hydrating it.
It has crossed my mind that exposing the crumb to the air might also be suggested to toughen up the crumb. Often "day old bread" is preferred for dipping or adding into recipes because of its stiffness or ability to break instead of bend. One of my favourite sandwiches is made on day old white and not fresh fluffy bread. And some breads I purposefully prefer them slightly stale or dried a bit. They also toast quicker when not so fresh.
Mini
You don't mention what kind of flour you use but generally the higher the protein (gluten) ,the chewier the bread. Or add vital wheat gluten (vwg).
EDIT:Oops. Missed the gluten in the recipe. Should be plenty chewy. Is it crumb chewiness you are seeking or crust chewiness. They can be developed by different means.
I used all purpose because its what I had, hence the addition of gluten. I thought this would do the trick too, but its really not as chewy as what I am looking for.
Its mainly the crumb that I need to work on, but I would be very interested in knowing both how to get a chewier crumb and crust if you have links to that info or care to explain.
Are you looking for a bagel-like texture to your bread?
Not exactly. I am getting a crispy and fairly chewy outside, but the crumb is still way too soft. I want the inside of the bread to have a coarse irregular airy and very elastic crumb that you have to pull on to get it to tare.
to translate the recipe into grams (see my forum post titled "Huge favour to ask") however a very strong bread flour and high hydration will help in making a chewy bread.
Strong flour and plenty of water, you could also try skipping the sugar.
It is just a yeast bread with a polish. I think to get the chewy crumb you want you will have to make a sourdough bread instead
Happy baking
agreed :)
Removing the oil is the most obvious way to add the typical ciabatta / french bread elastic crumb, with thin chewy membranes that you are looking for. You will also larger irregular holes.
On a side note, i suggest you will take some time to learn working with bakers percentage. Also, consider overnight refrigeration of the dough.
I didnt even see the oil, definitely skip the oil!
Forgiven1
Welcome to the TFL forum and wait it out. Kindness will come.
You did well by posting your recipe as you did.
dobie
I am just now getting around to posting, but I am happy to report I did get a dramatic improvement.
Here is a list of the things I did to get a chewier bread.
1. Use bread flour rather than AP + gluten. I would say this by itself gave me about a 10% gain in the elasticity of my crumb.
2. Leave out the oil. This also showed a little improvement.
3. Add the salt toward the end of the mixing cycle. This seemed to make a good bit of difference. Doing this I was able to keep the dough very soft, and get the stickiest most elastic pile of ectoplasm like goop I've seen. It stayed low in the bowl until I hit it with the salt which instantly caused it to climb the hook. When I took the dough out it could have probly stretched 5 feet.
I saw on a youtube video by a pro that the more elastic the dough is the better it will trap the CO2 gas for a more open crumb.
Here is a picture of what I started with. The nice crust, but soft white bread like insides.
Here is the new stuff.
Its hard to tell how much extra chew I got from a still picture but I would say its about 4x what I had to begin with. Here is my attempt at a vid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNt5NNAIS0k&feature=youtu.be
Overall I am pleased with the improvement. The one thing I am still confused about though is this. It seems like over time my dough looses its stretch. Like when I am letting it rest to do the stretch and folds and especially if I put it in the fridge. These things all seem to have the opposite effect of what I thought they were suppose to.
When trying to do my stretch folds rather than getting a loaf that increases in a elasticity and holds form better, the dough seems to revert back to more of a grainy state.
Guess its just something else I need to work on :)
forgiven1
First off, good pics. So helpfull.
Secondly, your report on the affect of adding the salt later was an eye opener. I will try that myself.
Third, I think it's wonderful that you have a goal in mind and continue to persue the technique to bring it to fruition.
I tried to access your video, but I was told it was 'private'. Do I need a password?
When you say your dough loses stretch, do you mean that it tightens up. If so, I would think that is a good thing.
But if your dough is reverting back to less tight, I can only recommend something I've just learned from TFL member 'alfonso'. Apparently it is quite possible for a reasonably tight dough to slacken mid-way thru the process, and that continueing forward might be of a help. I know it was for me.
Best of luck to you,
dobie
Hi dobie,
Thanks for your reply. The video should be fixed now.
What I meant by looses its stretch is that it becomes easier to tear apart. It starts to look almost like when you first start mixing it. It does still stretch some, but it gets a bit more grainy and coarse rather than more smooth and like a rubber band.
Frogiven1
Yes, the video is fixed. Thank you.
Too much like a rubber band could become it's own problem.
From what I saw in the vid, particularly when you stretched out the tiny bit (about midway in), it looks like it would be pretty good and chewey.
But that's just from my perspective. I also liked how it bounced back up when you pressed down on it.
Just personally, I thought it looked pretty good.
dobie
the working window for that particular dough. Don't forget you're dealing with a natural process and it can turn into compost. One that degrades and gives stretch and degrades more and falls apart. You want to work with the dough and bake it before it starts tearing and falling apart.
Mini
Good point.
forgiven1, keep at it. It's coming along nicely.
dobie
Thanks mini. I will try and track the total amount of time I am doing each process.
Your mention of that makes me wonder if this makes me wounder if I am getting this as a result of using additional starter. I have been shooting for a more tangy sour dough and so I went way up from the amount used in my original formula. Taste is great but maybe that is too much "old dough" in the mix.