Tartine Bread
This weekend I decided to dedicate my precious time to mastering the tartine loaf. I likely will be dedicating a whole year of weekends.
What I struggle with is the development. I see it time and time again on the posts - we've followed Chad's instruction very carefully and voila! One ends up with an absolutely delicious loaf of maximum rise 1.5 inches. I'm not posting pictures. That's been done before too.
My biggest question right now is how does development happen. If you watch the videos, read the book (Tartine 3 this wknd) there is so little hands on that it's hard to imagine when the dough develops. I followed the method described carefully, watched temperatures, tried to give it a very good stretch each 30 minutes without completely negating any development, watched timing and each time got a lovely frisbee.
So with so little handling how do you get the dough to a point that it will behave as a good loaf of bread should!
Tartine loaves were, for me, one of the most difficult to master (and I'd be giving myself too much credit to claim mastery of them!). I learned a lot about gluten development making these loaves, and you will, too. Many Tartine 3 recipes are complicated by the addition of porridge and other ingredients that affect the overall hydration, which makes gluten development more elusive to sense. If you take a basic ciabatta, for example, with 80%-90% hydration, the loaves will be relatively flat due to all the water added. However, the crumb will show a gluten structure with large air bubbles, indicating sufficient gluten development. I have found that for many of the porridge recipes, I need to reduce the amount of water a fair amount. Maybe I am making the porridge too wet compared to the book, which tends to be a bit vague on the subject.
But I am confused by your question:
I may be misinterpreting your statement, but "negating any development" sounds to me like the dough is deflating while you fold it, which may be caused by insufficient gluten development. It could also be hydration, like in ciabatta, or it could be the flours you use. If your flours are less thirsty than the ones specified in the book, then you may end up with a ciabatta-like consistency, and a flattened loaf. The recipes in books like Robertson's Tartine and Forkish's Flour Water Salt Yeast tend to be close to the edge, pushing hydration as far as they can to achieve an open crumb. In my experience it is always a balance between the flours and the hydration (and of course, toss in the time and temperature because overfermentation will tend to break down the gluten structure, but that's a different discussion). Final shaping of the loaf also plays a large part: If my shaping is poor, the dough will stick to the banneton, while a loaf that has a well formed sheath will almost never stick.
Perhaps you could try cutting back the hydration 5% or so and gradually add a little back with each bake. It may help with getting a feel for the dough.
Good luck!
-Brad
Thanks for the response.
I made the Emmer/Einkorn at 80% hydration. I have a 100% starter 50/50 bread/WW. For the high extraction 30% I mixed the whole grain with the bread flour in equal portions as suggested in the book. The formula has 40% "med-strong wheat flour" , 30% whole-grain einkorn and 30% high extraction flour. My leaven is very healthy. I built leaven and dough according to his direction.
As for your question about my remark on negating development, I get very good rise in the bulk ferment. I was trying not to stretch out all the volume already gained although some goes of course. Like his, my dough pancakes out before the next stretch and fold. Eventually the dough showed a hint of curve away from the sides of the bowl - that billowing up - lbut not enough apparently.
I think my biggest issue is the first mixing. At what point do I put it down to bulk ferment. if I follow the instructions provided I don't need a lot of development in the dough before I put it down for the stretch and fold portion. In retrospect I think I am starting out with an underdeveloped - gluten wise - dough.
As for final shaping i definitely do not have that down pat - managing a taut surface with high hydration.
Fortunately I don't have any other hobbies just now occupying my time. This one is very demanding when one has a mission.
I haven't worked with einkorn at all, though it is on my list. There are many posts on TFL and the sense that I got from reading them is that it offers no gluten structure, which makes it difficult to work. Karin (hanseata on TFL) describes her 30-ish% einkorn loaf here. Many other einkorn loaves are pan loaves. And if you haven't already seen it, there is a pretty long discussion of the ins and outs of einkorn here.
And I do agree with what Les said about not overproofing the Tartine loaves. Watch them carefully!
-Brad
...from reading them is that it offers no gluten structure...
It does develop gluten structure but it's extensible gluten, not elastic gluten, as with spelt. You'll either have to support it in the oven or you'll end up with a slumped loaf.
The flavour makes it well worth persevering with einkorn.
Thanks Jon, that's good to know.
-Brad
You can hold back the 5% water and add it back in during the later stretch and folds. as a double or triple hydration technique. Another thing is that dough is pretty stupid, well maybe not as stupid as Lucy but nearly so:-) With Tartine style breads I figure i can do what ever i want to do on the first go around of dough development and the dough won't know the difference between the S&F's and slap and folds. i like to give them a head start of the gluten development by doing 30 slap and folds in place of the stretch and folds for the first go around. This is especially helpful if using AP flour like i do instead of bead flour. The holes later aren't affected at all and the I think the bread actually rises and blooms better with even better holes.with weak flour.
happy baking
Thanks to you too dab..
My response to BFF said pretty much sums it up. The med-strong flour that I used is about 12% protein. I think you are correct about the AP vs bread flour. I have some bread flour but use it for yeast sweets (cin buns.. ) or sometimes mixing with a higher proportion of WW. The protein is listed at16%.
After reading your comments and BFF's (and also that my hands are complaining about the wknd workout - this aging thing is for the birds) I am going to try again cutting back the water to 72% and use a KA for the initial dough development to get it to midpoint. Then continue on with the outlined schedule, prove overnight and bake with his suggested procedure.
BFF touched upon temperature. It's winter so the house is a consistent temperature - always around 70-72 degrees. We had a new furnace installed in the spring (the old one was declared "unsafe" - who knew?). But I was used to that one with it's much less efficient delivery of heat. This winter all the "hot spots" have disappeared. It's a whole new learning curve. I have thought about a proofing box but for the most part once I figure out the time-temp optimums, I don't think there is really a need for one. I'm baking for personal consumption and challenge so schedule isn't as big an issue as it might be for those who are baking for market.
BTW, I don't think Lucy has any issues with intelligence. It seems her apprenticeship with you has been beneficial to both according to photos you post. You maybe should be more careful in case she starts reading your posts. She might steer you in the wrong direction if she isn't happy with your post.
reads and speaks Swedish, So i am safe using English....... a good thing since she can be a viscous lame wielding, ankle biter when provoked :-)
I saw Les's comment and his over proofing comment is spot on too.
The weekend was not a total washout on the baking front. I have 3500g - well maybe not quite that much anymore :( - of the best fruitcake I have ever made. It's the same as I've made many times in the past (I'm the 3rd generation baking it) but for whatever reason, it turned out as one of the best ever.
Happy week all!
good fruit cake is tough to beat any tome time of year.. i'e been working on my SD 1849'er version for several years now and this years was not as good as last two year's but still very good. Maybe the setback was due to the fruits were snockered for a whole year ahead of time ;-) I hope that wasn't the cause because i'm using the same ones for this year's Christmas Stollen and new Year's panettone::-(
One of the lessons I learned that improved my Tartine loaf was to err on the side of under-proofing rather than over-proofing.
The optimum proofing point is hard to determine, and when the dough goes beyond that point, it seems to very quickly lose its gluten structure and potential for oven spring.
So the lesson for me was to pay very close attention to the gluten development during the final proofing, using the 'poke test' and to try to guess how long I have before the dough becomes over-proofed. The guess becomes better with experience and with very close attention to the poke-test response, as well as taking account of the temperature during the proofing. But it's still a guess and susceptible to error, I'm afraid.
So I've finished sulking about it and thinking negative thoughts :)
I will do my final development in the fridge. So the poke test gets a little trickey. From pics etc I don't think you every see a lovely little rounded ball with that amount of hydration in your basket before baking, but I think I need firmer than I am developing. Practice practice practice...
Tartine seems to be built with a little bit of warmth at every stage - that is unless one proves in the fridge. I've made notes.
Challenge is good.
Typically the fridge is
a. useful to put the yeast in a dormant state, when the fermentation timescales don't meet our personal schedules
or
b. to put the yeast in a dormant state so the lactobacillus can develop more flavour
Either way, you won't get much leavening in the fridge. Some portion of the final proofing must be at room temp.
Les
I agree with all that you said, but I would like to add one thing.
However, I have never worked with Einkorn so my point may be moot.
But with various standard wheat flour doughs, I have found that extended times in the fridge does eventually result in significant developement.
By 'eventually', I mean at least 2 days. If I am gentle and careful with my shaping to final proof at room temp, the open crumb of a decent baguette is almost assured. A lot better than day one of the same dough for sure.
Just thought I'd throw that in.
dobie
Very interesting grain. May be in the wheat family but totally unique. Hope you get to try it soon. Not the easiest of flours to work with and haven't tried it in quite a while. Mini Oven has done a lot of experiments with Einkorn a while back. Your first point of call.
Looking forward to your Einkorn loaves Dobie.
Abe
I've been looking for Einkorn for a while now with no success. None of the 'bulk' places that I get my berries at, has it.
In fact, I've read conflicting reports about Emmer, Einkorn, Farro and Spelt. At one point or another, they have all been referred to as being the same as one or another. So I'm totally lost in that regard.
But of the four names, I can only find pearled farro, which I don't bother with. But when I do find whole berries of any of them, you can be sure I will be trying it out.
Yes, Mini Oven is someone I often check in with, particularly regarding whole grains.
Thanks
dobie
Emmer, Einkorn and Spelt are all different wheat family grains. The question is what is Farro. Farro is the Italian for...? Well, that's the question. It seems to be used interchangeably whether it can be or this is a mistake i'm not too sure about. It could also be the generic word for wheat or certain types of wheat. But what is clear is whatever farro means or refers to all these grains are different.
Hope you can find it soon.
- Abe.
I can find Einkorn Flour quite easily here. Just been doing a search and Jovial seems to be the go to brand in the USA https://jovialfoods.com/shop/einkorn/wheat-berries.html
Abe
Thanks for the info and the link. I will check them out.
It may just be that Farro is just Farro, unto itself like the others.
But I have definitely read where it is referred to as another name for Spelt (and on another occassion) the same as Emmer. Maybe somebody will know and chime in.
Thanks again
dobie
is to give it time to fully hydrate before doing anything with it. At least 15 minutes if not more. It doesn't respond to too much playing and will get sticky with manipulating. I would be so tempted to handle it separately and then epoxy the doughs together. just a thought.
I also have not yet ridden the Tartine wave, not yet.
Mini Oven
Interesting that you should say that about seperately and epoxied together.
That's exactly what I was thinking regarding the Barley Experiment. Develop the gluten in the wheat flour separately. I was thinking I could make both doughs on the wet side and about equal consistency (if not hydration) for easy blending and then add the small amount of flour needed to get to the proper hydration.
Have you ever tried such a technique?
Thanks very much.
dobie
and start catching up. :) Not sure separating barley and wheat would make a difference. I think it benefits the barley flour to hydrate tightly together with the wheat flour from the get go. Might want to try an experiment.
Mini
Will do.
I had no idea this technique existed. I was too busy re-inventing the wheel (as they say).
Thanks for the heads up.
dobie
nothing wrong with re-inventing the wheel as long as it doesn't take a thousand years. :)
Mini, have you dipped your toe in, if not actually ridden the wave? Your knowledge and experience seems so vast, that it is hard to imagine you haven't made a loaf alla Tartine already, whether before he wrote the book or after!
I've only been baking a few years myself, but with the exception of my first 2 bakes, everything I've made was out of or based on Tartine, and FWSY. It seems a little narrow when I write that, but I've not tired of it, and people really do rave about it when I bake enough to share.
recipe or method. Now I see it is an open faced french sandwich loaf and so many recipes. So what makes it "Tartine?"
is the French word for a slice of bread. It's also the name of a cafe in California whos owner makes a particular style of sourdough bread (out of millions of other ways of making sourdough) and has written books on his style and methods with recipes.
It confused me initially when I first read it...
-Gordon
http://www.amazon.de/Tartine-Bread-Chad-Robertson/dp/0811870413
and falling in love. I should have read the intro sooner, relate exactly to the text. This method and day times would be great for me too! I can just feel it. and yes, it is very familiar. I also don't like a sour wheat bread preferring it in my rye but rye also has a preferable limit. Have to see what flour is available to me.
I fly tomorrow into tropical Laos, no walk in refrigeration but entering the cooler season so may take advantage of cool mountain nights. So eager to get that oven up and running. I have a day in Bangkok (noon to noon) with no idea how to spend my time. Dolly has to ride in cargo for our last flight so we have to wait for a plane big enough to take live cargo. (it would be so simple to have her in the cabin with me.) Another adventure begins.
The timing for the loaves is pretty flexible -- if you prepare the levain the night before you can mix the dough in the morning, bulk ferment with 5 turns over four hours, preshape and bench for 30 minutes and then shape and rise for 4 hours at room temperature and bake late afternoon, or stick in fridge and bake the following morning if you like.
I recall reading that you only let your dough proof for an hour after the bulk ferment. This may be a challenge for you in that regard!
einkorn, emmer and spelt with the added disclaimer small medium and large which refers to the length of the seed pod in that order. farro grande is spelt. If no disclaimer is used then the Italians assume it to be emmer. All of them are their own separate grains but I find that einkiorn sprouts differently then the other 2 and it can be more bitter - at least to me and a little goes a long way.
dbm
Thank you so much for clearing that all up.
dobie