More taste due to long fermentation times?
Hello,
I have some thoughts about peaople saying longer fermentation times gives more bakterias than shorter fermentation times. I do not understand this statement because of:
1. Up to a certain temperature (hot) lactobacillus and yeast are equal fast. So if you use a fridge for fermetation a long time the total amount of acid produced will be around the same as if it was fermented ten times as fast in room temperature. I base this on that the bread needs the yeast to create co2 x number of times both in room temp and in the fridge. When its ready makes no difference if it was cold or warm. If lactobasillus creates acid in the same speed as yeast creates leavening both in room temp and in the fridge. Then the total amount of acid would be the same?
2. If using only small amount of starter compared to large amount of starter there will be no difference in total amount of acid produced? I think so becuase 1 kilo of dough needs x amount of yeast co2 for leavening. Total leavening time for a high % starter :VS: low % starter bread is the same. It need the same amount of leavening to be ready.
Is this true?
I do know that with temperature and hydration level different flavour are developed by lactobasillus but the amount crated is the same? I know low temp favours acetic acid and makes bread more sour. This is not what i am talking about.
Sorry for my English and this is my first post on the forum...
I don't make sourdough, so I can only comment on yeasted breads, but long fermentation brings out more of the flour's flavour, which I imagine is also the case with sourdough. How much of that flavour can be detected under the taste of the starter is another matter and it's one reason I prefer 'sweet' bread.
Your English is excellent. Much better than some of the native speakers who post here.
yeast in SD from 36 to 94 F. So yeast are always a bit behind the LAB but at 68 to 76 F the yeast are only 2-4% behind the LAB. but it isn't that easy
There are many different LAB and yeast that could be living together in any one SD culture. Some yeast produce more Co2 than others some LAB produce as much CO2 as the yeast do under certain circumstances. At 39 F and 90 F the LAB will reproduce 3 times faster than the yeast do.
The normal SD culture also has 100 times as many LAB as yeast so the yeast are quite outnumbered, Also the LAB can produce two kinds of acid lactic and acetic, with different flavor profiles, depending on the temperature and hydration of the mix,
Generally speaking the longer the the ferment and proof takes the better the flavor profile and there are several ways ways and combination of ways to increase the LAB and reduce the yeast in the mix. The ferment and proof take even longer than normal with a dough that has been altered to have more LAB and less yeast which produces a much more sour bread.
But it depends on the flour and the food in that flour or added to it that is available and what LAB and yeast you have in your culture and even the methods used to build, maintain and store levains starters and dough can make a huge difference in flavor. It seems that few baking things are ever as easy as we think it should be
Happy baking
Enzyme activity affects LAB and yeast activity, and also flavor compounds and their precursors (in addition to those associated with yeast and LAB), as well as other dough characteristics. Many enzymes are in the grains, not just from the yeasts and LAB and are not affected in the same way by temperature.
It is a more complex situation than simply plotting yeast and LAB growth curves and CO2 production
In any case, try a comparison and let your mouth and nose weigh in on whether there is a difference
Hi bikeprof
How do the enzymes affect LAB and yeast?
Thanks in advance,
dobie
the help produce food...they also liberate amino acids that play a role in a variety of flavor compounds
but they are also temperature sensitive, and that might seem to support you claims, but it isn't that simple...with lower temps you get more in the way of dough structural and flavor development with less rise (one of a few limiting conditions)
here is a short piece on enzymes in dough:
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/enzymes-the-little-molecules-that-bake-bread/
I also recommend the book: The Bread Builders by Dan Wing and Alan Scott, for its section on sourdough fermentation, very accessible and informative
bikeprof
Thank you for a very informative response.
Also, thank you for the link. Even more detail.
I have added Bread Builders to my short list.
dobie
Do you have any idea of the range of temperatures within which the different enzymes are able to function, by any chance, or a pointer to where i might find that data?
The SciAm article is fascinating (when aren't they!) but there's no mention of temperature sensitivity there.
Thank you for the answeres.
I think my Subject was a bit missguiding. It asks for more taste but what i was looking for was totalt amount of acids produced, wheather it is lactic or acetic acids. I will draw up two different examples:
1:
300g levain fermented 12 hours
Final dough 700g fermented 4 hours
totalt fermentation 16 hours total dough 1000g
2:
Straight 1000g final dough with no levain only a normal starter fermented 16 hours.
Will example 1 and 2 have the same amount of acids produced if the tempreature and starter used was exactly the same?
Lets also asume that in both examples the two doughs had raised to the exact same level.