November 7, 2015 - 7:31am
hydration without yeast?
I am re-reading In Search of the Perfect Loaf/ Samuel Fromartz's book that got me into this obsession/ passion in the first place. He mentions visiting Frederic Pichard's bakery in Paris. Pichard had a tub of dough hydrating: flour, water, and salt - no yeast. It had been sitting out for 24 hours. This 'allowed the inherent flavors of the wheat to develop before the yeast was added.' After the yeast was added, the dough was minimally mixed and left to ferment 4-7 hours. Pichard based this 'highly unorthodox' procedure on wine-making techniques.
I am intrigued, but HOW did he add the yeast? Dry and kneaded in? Not wet, I assume. Has anyone tried this? I am having a hard time picturing it in my mind's eye. thanks
Share
This is a common technique called autolyse. Normally the salt is left out. It can be 20 minutes or 20 hours depending on the desired results. If active dry yeast is used then some of the water could be held back. Otherwise it is added dry using instant or fresh yeast.
Thanks Maverick. OK, so when the yeast is added, has it been mixed with more floury dough and they are kneaded together? Thx
Hi Maverick
Do you know what exactly the difference in results would be between 20 minutes and 20 hours?
I'm assuming gluten development is greater over time as well as the breaking down of starches into sugars for the yeast to feed on.
I tried this once (with either AP or Bread flour, forget which) somewhere between 65 and 70% hydration (it was a while ago) and found the gluten so developed after 18 hours or so that it was very difficult to incorporate the yeast and salt.
Also, as an alternative, if one were to preferment for that amount of time, will the yeast eventually or effectively (eat, destroy or somehow) weaken the gluten thus developed?
Thanks
dobie
Especially at higher hydrations. The dough's sticky but can be stretched out and rolled up quite cleanly.
I've assumed that multi-stage building was done to ensure the preferment still had good gluten structure when added to the mix.
Jon
I was probably working at too low a hydration, it just wouldn't stretch out much at all. More like a tight ball that just wouldn't give. It was a lean dough.
And no, for myself, there was no multi-stage build. But if I'm reading into what you're saying correctly, with a preferment, the yeast will degrade the gluten?
That could explain a number of failures I've had in this persuit, both extended autolyse and preferment. Particulary with preferments, I can end up with a dough where the gluten falls apart from it's own weight, as if I were baking a cake with pastry flour. It didn't make sense that it was under or over kneaded, so I didn't know why. I will try multi-stage.
Thanks,
dobie
The flour you were working with will probably account for some of the difference, of course. My mixture, most of which is wholemeal, is always quite extensible but not elastic. Baking in tins, that's not a problem.
I don't know if yeast will do it but I think enzymes make the dough start to slacken after a certain amount of time. As I said, the few times I've let an autolyse go on for 18-20 hours or so the dough has been noticeably more delicate and harder to handle and the resulting loaves denser. Modern wheat may be able to manage a longer period.
OK Jon,
Just wanted to say, I hear you.
dobie
No set rules here but when I autolyse I do the initial mix without yeast just to the point of the dough coming together. Then for active dry you just sprinkle the yeast on top and mix/knead to develop gluten. For me. I am usually adding the levain after autolyse.
I usually do not add salt but don't autolyse for more than a few hours. Hammelman sometimes recommends salt for overnight grain soakers. I think it slows any bacterial growth and enzymatic activity.
Thank you prettedda
Sounds like this might be a time for me to use a 'stiff' levain (with either commercial or wild yeast) wherein the hydration of it and the autolyse were similar.
I think if I ground up my coarse Kosher salt a bit (or used fine sea salt), it would probably incorporate better. I will say tho that biting down on a crunchy bit of salt was not entirely unpleasant (a little bit like a pretzel).
dobie
I stretch the dough out, sprinkle the dried yeast on it, roll the dough up, fold the resultant sausage in three or four and then slap and fold the dough a half-dozen times to distribute the yeast further before putting it aside for bulk fermentation.
I have left the dough for extremely extended periods on a few occasions but it's usually around six to eight, or at most 12, hours. Modern wheat may react differently but I find the flour I bake with becomes much more fragile after that.
Jon
What flours do you work with? I forget.
dobie
.
Thanks Jon
Home milled or out sourced?
I can get spelt flour locally (but not 'unpearled' berries). I have still not found a source for emmer or einkorn of any sort. Hell, I've only just recently found a source for unpearled barley. I can get rye, kamut and various wheat berries tho, which I'm thankful for.
To the original thought, do you think these types of flour (however sourced) are more prone to quicker degredation of gluten than standard AP or Bread flour, less so or the same? I would suspect that they don't have the gluten content that AP & Bread do, but I really don't know.
dobie
Thanks to you all. I have some better understanding of this. It sounded so foreign but I gather it is not, really. I am loving the hydration, which I never knew about before. Really makes a difference, especially in the whole wheats/ white whole wheat. Take care. Baking Blessings.
...from Shipton Mill. Home milling's not common over here, as far as I'm aware. I've been buying wholemeal and white spelt and wholemeal emmer from the mill for a number of years now but the wholemeal einkorn's a new line of theirs. I suspect the shipping would prove prohibitive for you, sadly.
You get plenty of gluten development with the older varieties of wheat but there's a different ratio of gliadin to glutenin, so you get less elasticity to the dough.
I have no idea how they compare to modern wheat. Sorry. I was already using spelt in a machine when I started hand baking and emmer by the time I started using an autolyse.
Jon
I checked out your link to Shipton Mills and they seem to be very reputable. So, are you saying that you can go 'locally' to Shipton Mills (or a local retailer) and buy fresh ground flour of various sorts? Man, if that's true, you are one lucky pup. If I could do that, I would, for most of my needs.
Also, are you saying that you're not baking with 'modern' grains (assuming by that the red winter, spring, hard, soft white, etc)? In other words, not AP or Bread flour as commercially available?
Thanks,
dobie
Not 'locally', no. Although it's only about 70 miles away and I could be there in less than 90 minutes. I order on-line. If you buy more than £30 worth of flour delivery is free. Collecting it would cost me about half that in fuel alone. I usually order about once every three months and it's on my doorstep within 36-48 hours.
There are other, smaller mills and larger companies selling these sorts of flours over here. Some are available in supermarkets but the more interesting ones are only found on-line or in 'health food' or other specialist outlets. For example, the spelt from Sharpham Park is available in supermarkets, as are some of the Dove's Farm flours. In fact, spelt is becoming almost common in supermarkets now. The less common flours tend to be found in small, specialist shops and are quite pricey because the shops don't have the buying power to sell them at a moderate price.
And yes, I haven't used common wheat (Triticum aestivum) for years. Not since I ordered a bag of spelt from Shipton Mill with one of my usual orders and made a test loaf. I was so impressed that I was slightly peeved at having to use up the three months supply of strong bread flour before I could switch entirely. I now use spelt as the basis of my everyday loaves and add bits and pieces of some of the mill's other flours for flavour or texture. I also use white spelt for biscuits, some cakes and naan. The flavour and texture is far superior to common wheat for most purposes, in my opinion.
Jon
I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you about one point. If your mill is 70 miles away or so, here in the States, we would consider that local. By that I mean, it's not shipped 2 to 3,000 miles for delivery.
Plus the fact that you can have it delivered free on a 30 pound order (sorry I don't know how to make the 'pound' sign; which is about $45 US I think), no wonder you don't go pick it up yourself. Just an aside, how much is gas (petrol, I guess in the UK) per gallon these days? And that would be in 'Imperial Gallons', correct?
That is quite a testimonial as to spelt and based on that, I am going to get a few lbs tomorrow for next week's bake. I can get spelt flour (but not berries) and other than that it is organic, I don't know it's quality, but it would be a start.
I would like to start off simple. As I understand it, the gluten content is not as high as common wheat flour. Any links available to recipes (preferably yours) that might help smooth the way to a successful bake?
Thanks for the inspiration.
dobie
But when you live in the most densely populated region of the most densely populated country in Europe you don't usually have to travel far to get what you need, so the concept of local adapts to suit. And petrol at $6.45/US gallon (today's price and exchange rate) helps to encourage you to think locally, too! That trip would cost about [tappety-tap] $27.
See my message 'Using spelt' below. It's really quite similar to common wheat, so it's not difficult to use and it gives a loaf a distinctive texture as well as flavour. Crusts crumble and crunch, rather than tear, because the gluten is different.
You'll probably find lots of recipes on-line which talk about 'Roman' spelt bread. Ignore them. They usually involve making a wet dough, always with honey, and pouring it into a shallow tin with no, or minimal, working because of this myth that spelt lacks gluten. The cake they produce tastes fine but you wouldn't think of it as bread nor feel very proud of having made it.
Jon
Yes, local is truly relative.
My God, $6.45/US gal for gas! I'm pretty sure that's the first time I've ever used an exclaimation mark on this forum and rightfully so (BTW, thank you for doing the math/conversion). We're paying about $2.25/US gal currently, down about $1.50 or so in the past year.
To stay on topic, I will check out your posts regarding 'spelt' doughs as well as others on TFL before I proceed. But you have peaked my interest.
Yes, most of the chatter on the web concerning spelt is as an ancient Roman grain/bread, lacking in gluten, BTW, I really don't like sweet in most breads. One way or the other, I feel.
Do you think I should just treat it more or less like common flour? What kind of adjustments (if any) did you make when you transitioned?
Thanks again,
dobie
.
Yes Jon, it is
I've been jumping around a bit, trying to keep up.
Thank you
dobie
Thanks again for all your sage advice. Great blog, great community. I learn so much at the Fresh Loaf. Bake on!
Oh, interesting about spelt. I have some. We brought some back from Germany once, 5#. My dear husband carried it! I can get it at a mill near here (Pasadena, Los Angeles). I have not tried it as a main flour. Thanks for the suggestion.
You can use it pretty much as a replacement for common wheat except for a couple of things:
The gluten it develops is different. Free-baked spelt loaves tend to slump and spread quite a bit, so using a Dutch oven, baking in a retaining ring of some sort or making tinned loaves are likely to give you the best results.
The final proof will be quicker. Perhaps only taking two-thirds as long as common wheat flours.
Got it Jon
I'll just give it a whirl.
dobie
Another way to add yeast to dough is just to hydrate dry yeast with a few spoons of water and add as a paste. The first time I did that, was surprised how much water I needed as the yeast soaks up water like a sponge. Kneading in dry instant is easy to do but it can be seen as little bumps under the skin of the dough and takes moisture away from surrounding dough until it dissolves. Not a problem if you have plenty of time or want to slow the process to come up with the resting time ( 5 to 7 hrs) you were reading about. I might do another light kneading after a half hour rest to make sure the yeast dissolves. If the dough is stiff or of low hydration, I would add the yeast hydrated as a paste so it blends sooner and smoother. Another method to add instant yeast, just spread out the dough, mist or spray with water and sprinkle on the measured instant yeast. Follow up with a little finger painting before rolling up the dough and lightly knead to disperse.
Yeast with large pearls needs to be dissolved in hot water to break down the waxy coating, so follow the package directions with as little 40°C (104°F) hot water as needed usually about 4 x the yeast weight. (Hitting with a hammer just sends little yeast pearls all over the kitchen.) :)
Fresh yeast can be crumbled or liquified (rolled and pressed into recipe malt or sprinkle of sugar) before being added.
For wheat type flours I normally hydrate the flour (soak) at least 8 hours (flour and water) or overnight before adding yeast. The original post did not mention room temperature of dough "sitting out" but I would take a guess that the room was not warmer than 22°C (72°F.)
The speeded up version would be poolish type pre-fermented doughs where a tiny amount of yeast is added to the soaker resulting in a variety of maturing times from 6 to 18 hours depending on temperature and yeast population. Naturally the more yeast and warmer temps (within the natural growing temps for yeast) the shorter the time inside that 6 to 18 hour wait. Waiting too long, the dough will over ferment or deteriorate to the point that fresh flour needs to be added to replace the destroyed gluten matrix. Usually the more gluten in the dough (bread flour) the longer it can stand wet without falling apart.
The more whole or bran in the flour, the higher % salt goes into the soaker up to 4% on whole wheat. Addition of soaked unsalted AP or bread flour (separate soaking if needed) reduces the salt down to 2% for the dough total. In warmer temps, the soaking should stand in a fridge or cooler pantry to discourage unwanted bacteria populations (typically seen first few days when getting wild sourdough starters growing.)
(Exception. It should be said that in some warmer countries without refrigeration, the initial bacteria growth can raise bread dough and particular flat breads made this way are culturally acceptable and desired. I haven't read or heard of this practice with larger thicker loaves.)
Hi Mini Oven
I like that idea for working in dry yeast into an extended autolyse.
And I hear what you're saying about the deterioration of the gluten matrix over time. I have certainly experienced that (all too often).
dobie
You could also use a technique picked up from that book that I use for salt. After mixing the flour and liquid for the autolyse make a well and add yeast and a little water to hydrate then when it is time to develop the gluten it would be easily encorporarated.
Stu
By the way Dobie check out Breadtopia they carry Spelt and Einkorn both in berries and flour. The flour is ground on site, I know because of a visit.
STUinlouisa
Thank you, I will definetly check them out.
dobie