Mouldy starter ....should I just give up ?
Hello fellow bakers,
I'm about to give up on my quest to get a sourdough starter going.
This is my second or third attempt that has failed.
Given my previous failings, I went really OTT in terms of making sure I did everything "by the book" (or went beyond the book), namely :
(1) My container and lid went into the dishwasher on a high heat cycle. (used a Lock &Lock food safe, my previous failed attempts used a glass Kilner jar)
(2) I used bottled mineral water (Vittel) to initiate and feed my starter during its infancy.
(3) I used fresh, top of the range, organic wholemeal and rye flours to feed it (50:50)
(4) I fed it daily
(5) I only used clean plastic implements to mix it
(6) The container was left lid unlatched on one side, and placed in a clean cupboard in my kitchen at room temperature (approx 21/22 centigrade, so not overly warm).
(7) At the same time, in a separate container, I was planning to start a raisin based starter. Got some organic, un-oiled raisins, and used the same mineral water ... after about 5-6 days I find a "healthy" layer of mould growing on top of that too ! Yuk !
As you can see I tried everything to rule out sources of bad bacteria. I can't see it being the mineral water at fault, since those were fresh bottles bought from a busy location that has a healthy stock turnover, so they were not hanging around.
Basically what happened in terms of the wholemeal starter is I started it last Tuesday/Wednesday and then yesterday go to it, find the starter bubbling away, but mould (as per photo) growing up the side of the container.
I agree the pineapple trick might might be the best for you. A more acidic environment would probably have prevented that mold. And unless it is terrible I think tap water works great.
...LAB from doing their normal thing and out-competing their rival micro-organisms. Rye and spelt flour (especially stoneground) are rich in wild yeast so you're doing all the right things to give the starter a chance.
A similar happened to me once when I used an earthenware jar. Mould needs moisture and prefers the dark and unfortunately spores had colonised micro-pores in the ceramic. It may be you're experiencing something as simple as air currents (or more likely the lack of them) dumping mould spores on your culture.
How about eliminating as many variables as possible and starting with the simplest reliable method: stoneground, additive-free rye flour and water, maybe keeping the culture somewhere light, dry, and well-ventilated like a windowsill? Then elaborating from there.
Alternatively, try mixing it and storing it in another room.
Appreciate all the comments so far. Sounds like RoundhayBaker may be onto something with the idea of light and well ventilated area ... seeing as I seem to have eliminated most other obvious variables (and I was already using stoneground, additive-free, organic flour), seems like a sensible thing to try.
Pinapple trick also sounds interesting, I'll look into that some more.
Can you tell us your process? It sounds like you are just mixing the flour and water and letting it sit for a week. While this can work, it usually requires a pretty firm dough to avoid the wet moldy conditions. I have made starter many times and the method I recommend after all the different ways is definitely Debra Wink's pineapple juice method linked above. Just scroll down to where it says Day 1 (use pineapple juice, not orange juice or whatever best results)
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10901/pineapple-juice-solution-part-2
> Can you tell us your process? It sounds like you are just mixing the flour and water and letting it sit for a week.
Of course, and not quite.
Don't have my notes to hand at the moment, but will come back later and give you the detail (sorry, I know, I should have posted it originally !)
Fresh Lofian who came up with this - The acid environment in the beginning of the process with OJ or pineapple juice keeps the bad wee beasties, who can't tolerate an acid environment, at bay so the acid tolerant ones you eventually want in your sour acid environment are allowed to take over more easily. it isn't a trick just science:-). Who knew sciemce would come back to haunt us:-) I say never let science get out of the way of success!
78 F is the perfect temperature for starting a culture - not too hot and not too cold.
You can search for Pineapple Juice Starter in the search box and get Debra's whole method of making a starter
Don't give up - SD bread is worth the effort.
I started my yeast water from Minneolas from the back yard. You just need to take the orange rinds out of the mix the 2nd day. The citrus really helped in that adventure too.
"A clever or ingenious device or expedient; adroit technique" English can be as useful as science.
I still say - Pineapple trick - it is a good one for some people.
trick .....but did find these as the number 1 meaning trick for each category
nounOf course - only being able to get past the first definition explains the ignorance. How about this from the oxford?
1.4 A clever or particular way of doing something: the trick is to put one ski forward and kneel. Obviously putting one ski forward is NOT being cunning, deceitful or deceiving.
Can I just ask that you don't comment on things I write. Your consistent condescending (and wrong) points are such a waste of time. If I use your small minded approach to words, how can you even talk about a "starting a culture"? Oxford dictionary shows it can't possible have anything to do with sourdough: the "number 1 meaning":
1. Culture: The arts and other manifestations of human intellectual achievement regarded collectively
Oh wait because it isn't the "number 1 meaning": 2. Biology The cultivation of bacteria - What do you know you have to actually read the whole thing to understand other ways it can be used!! Nice trick huh!
The trick isn't knowing the many definitions of any word - anyone can look them up.......the trick is knowing which definition of the many fits the situation.at hand. Not knowing that is ignorance.
But now you are making it personal and just being nasty so i m done with you for now!
Happy baking
Exactly and I knew the exact definition that was intended for the situation at hand. And perfectly applied to the idea of the "pineapple trick". Sorry that confused you and you had to comment on it. The idea is to look it up before you claim somebody else is wrong. Thank you for being done, it is all I asked.
Temperature is the problem. Not warm enough and often left out of starter starting recipes.
Try it again. Big change: On the first day, get that starter temp. up to about 26/30 degrees and hold it there for 24 hrs. Then drop back to 24/26 for the rest of the time.
Once established (in about a week to two weeks) the 21/22°C will not be a big hurdle for the yeast, but you have to pamper them first with warmth. Body heat also works if you can't find a warm spot.
Mini
> Body heat also works if you can't find a warm spot.
Now this is getting silly ! I'm not going to bed with my starter and I'm not going to curl up infront of the TV and watch a movie with it either. ;-)
If you gave your starter a name it is almost be like a movie with a friend! I actually often wonder about the stories of prospectors in Alaska with a pouch of starter around their neck. I am sure the heat part worked. But there are so many questions as to how that all played out.
(I wouldn't tell your starter you thought so coldly) but a small jar or double zip locks in a vest pocket during the day works wonders. You can't get it too warm like with an oven light or putting it into a sunlit car. The starter amount doesn't have to be much, just a tablespoon of flour and enough water to keep things wet. Starters are flexible, just carry it around during the day and don't sit on it like a chicken. (!) If you got a laying chicken, why not put some flour and water inside an easter egg and smuggle it into the nest and hope the chicken doesn't notice the plastic for a day. Let her incubate it for you. (hey kids... interesting science fair project!)
Curling up with if for a movie sounds interesting... If the TV is warm, try setting it on top covered with a small towel to insulate.
ok you don't have to bed down with it. But since becoming immersed in the whole sourdough baking process I have often thought that a waterbed would have been a bonus! I hated that waterbed as a younger person but I can definitely see its value now as a warming agent for raising dough. Needless to say it is long gone. And even dough raising won't make me get it back:)
The point is that I think Mini is absolutely right (she usually is). Dab wouldn't notice so much. It's always warm where he is. I'm on the Canadian prairies where big temperature range is the norm for a good part of the year. So I pick my spots in the house. I look for warm areas for my dough. For any of the starters I have made from scratch I always found a warm spot til it was established. I haven't failed yet. I'm sure I will but til then It works. I don't leave ithe jar open because if you have one fruit fly it will find your starter. If you have many leave them some starter to entice them. I open the lid a few times a day while trying to establish a starter and let some air in. Waving a jar around always entertains watchers So you accomplish two purposes. Useful and frivolous. Usually by day 5 I am happy with my new starter but I don't use it for a couple of weeks. Just keep strengthening. I have done pineapple and flour and water with equal results.
I think kitchens have characteristics too.
I have heard this is quite a tourist attraction in the colder months.
container of SD trying to get some fresh air in there - not that I have done so myself. :-)
I remember when i was trying to get YW going for the first time. teketeke said to open the jar after shaping it to let some fresh air on the jar. Sounded perfectly reasonable to me until i started thinking about it The yeast in the YW made CO2 and since CO2 is heavier than air none would actually get in by just opening the lid and waving the jar around to force some it would not be a good idea at all if you didn't want to be wearing the YW.
So, since teketeke was Japanese and I was making miniature painted kites at the time, I made a miniature Geisha fan out of a copy of the Japanese wood block print The Waves of Kanagawa in her honor and used it to fan the YW when the lid was off to get that nasty CO2 out of there. Lucy would go bonkers when I did it - I had to look pretty funny and silly fanning away on that open YW jar with that little fan:-)
The things we do for starters...Lucy wanted to market the fans to YW enthusiasts the world over saying that fools,were easily separated from their money. Now I have to go find that fan. i haven't shaken that YW or taken the lid off in quite a while. I still don't know why fresh air helps so much but I'm not changing what works!
After still being in the low 100's the past week it is now supposed to go into the 90's so..... it is time to plant the tomatoes and lettuce for the Winter garden and have both byThnksgiving and find the heating pad for starters and bread making when the kitchen only gets into the mid 60's after that.
Happy baking Jane
Whatever it takes. Neither rain nor snow nor sleet...:)
I would definitely try a different source of water too. Or boil what you're using just to see if it makes a difference
A stutter. I repeated myself :(