September 30, 2015 - 11:54am
Long lasting loaf
Hello all,
I’m in the very early stages of researching for a small bakery to produce sliced loaves of bread and wanted advise on how I can keep it as fresh as possible for as long as possible. I would also prefer to have a mainly automated production process but on a small scale to begin. Please can anyone advise? Thank you
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Enriched bread will stay fresh longer than those made with lean dough.
Thank you Maverick. Does that mean that I would just need to buy enriched flour or as a person setting up my own bakery (and brand of bread), I would need to add the ingredients to make it 'enriched' myself?
I don't wish to burst your bubble but if you're about to start up a bakery and you don't know what an enriched dough is then you have a lot of learning to do.
Were I you, I'd stop whatever you're doing and go and take a course in commercial baking. You are going to need it.
BreadDream
Jon OBrien is absolutely right. Learn to bake first. Let your dream (and business plan) mature as you learn. Work at a bakery that does something similar to what you envision. Bake your heart out at home.
But to address the discussion at hand, enriched flour has niacin added (and possibly other things, good or bad). Enriched dough and the bread made from it contains at least one of oil, eggs or sugar (or a host of many other things).
Lean dough and the bread made from it is tradionally made of only yeast, flour, salt and water. The salt is not absolutely necessary. While I suppose you could substitute another leavening agent (baking soda, baking powder or other chemicals) for the yeast, a leavening agent is not absolutely necessary. That leaves you with only flour and water, the leanest of all breads, in other words - Matzoh or pasta.
Then there is sourdough. I will just say that a lean bread leavened with a true sourdough culture will outlast the same lean bread made with commercial yeast.
The whole idea of an automated process makes me wonder - why would I buy your bread rather than Pepperidge Farm's?
I have a dream that one day this bread will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident; that not all breads (unlike men) are created equal (MLK revised).
I know my dream of starting a bakery will be getting serious the day I take a job at a bakery. Having run several of my own business' in previous lives, I will say that I see a lot of long days and nights with a lot of hard work and a very tight profit margin, automated or not (NOT). It might kill me, might heal me, might even make me happy but it won't make me rich.
Do a search for the TFL member named 'Varda' who is a few years into a dream similar to yours. Start from the oldest post and work your way up. You might learn a lot (and probably save yourself a lot of heartache and money).
Good luck - Dobie
in addition to the above posts about learning (and never stop learning!) how about simply making fresh bread every day. That's what I do - small scale - usually under 40 a day so keeping it fresh has never been an issue. (and on the rare occasion a loaf doesn't sell in the shops I supply, they just bag it overnight and sell it cheaper in the morning - sourdough is still perfectly good for a few days...)
-Gordon
Thank you all very much for your comments, its really appreciated and please excuse my naïve questions. I should explain a little further – I would like to start a bakery but not to actually be the baker. The reason being that I want to open the bakery ‘back home’ as my brother works in the interior and once they buy bread in town and travel, the bread doesn’t last. He wants to get soft fresh white bread that we are used to but over there its not possible. So I’ve seen a gap and wanted to open a small bakery to provide for him and those around wanting the same type of bread. I basically can’t find anyone there who knows the process as its not the norm to have a lasting loaf so I would actually like to find a paid consultant who can teach the commercial process as i need to make about a few hundred a day as a rough estimate
Where is 'back home', 'the interior' and 'over there'? I'd guess at Oz but it might be handy to know exactly where you're talking about.
Where would the bakery be located? In the town where your brother buys the bread that doesn't last or the place he heads to with the bread? If the former, when he, and the others, get where they're going, would they have access to an oven? How about a freezer? Could you produce part-baked loaves which they could finish off for 30 minutes in an oven?
Lots of questions. The more info you provide the easier it'll be to answer your questions.
I want the location of the actual bakery to be irrelevant because my focus is bread that can last a few weeks like the US. I grew up in the UK and a loaf lasts about 5 days. This way I wouldn't have to depend on one group of customers and I could supply anyone else that is interested in the bread so I can sustain the business. In addition, my brother would not have access to an oven or more specifically the inclination to do bake, he would just want to take a loaf of bread with him.
Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you wanted to make bread. What you're describing isn't bread, it's the product of the 'no time' process and I doubt that you'll find anyone here willing to help you perpetrate that crime against humanity.
clearly i have offended you and that was not my intension.
You don't give offence; people take it. I haven't. I'm merely making two statements: 1) what you're describing doesn't conform with any but the most general definition of bread. 2) as this is a forum dedicated to good bread (note the word 'artisan' in the banner), you're unlikely to find anyone willing to put much effort into helping you produce it.
If you can sell 200 plus loaves a day in the 'interior', why not build a small bakery on site?
My hope would be to grow the bakery to a few hundred a day so I would need to be open to the general public and located somewhere the bakery is accessible to everyone (no location has been found as yet).
OK, I get it.
Be sure to hire a competent baker. He or she will know what to do.
Personally, I'm not offended. But I will restate the question: 'Why would I buy your bread and not Pepperidge Farm's? You gotta figure they're pretty good at it and are obviously profitable on a large scale.
I also think you should definitely hire a good business consultant to help you with your business plan.
Basically what you're trying to do is mimic a "product" that's commercially processed, beaten to a pulp and back again, enhanced with various preservatives, enzymes, anti-fungals not to mention "processing aids", and who knows what to get something that resembles bread, but isn't quite - but something that will last a week before it goes mouldy, if it doesn't go stale first.
Either got out and buy a fully commercial Chorleywood bread process system capable of making a million loaves a day or give up. It will be horrible.
It is possible to make long-life real bread though. Good rye breads can last over a week if stored and wrapped properly, even months - e.g. this stuff:
http://www.biona.co.uk/product-369-4.html
lasts for months until you open the pack... But while that is an organic rye bread with no additives, to make it and pack it requires specialised processing and sterile packing...
Good luck - you'll need it.
-Gordon
Delicious with a creamy butter and a tangy sauerkirsche. One of my favourite flavour combinations.
A shame it's not white and fluffy...
the type of customer that likes fluffy white bread is not likely to enjoy rye.
Each to their own but I wouldn't put a lot of energy in trying to duplicate that type of bread, my solution would be to buy a big freezer and half a truckload of the stuff. I doubt that there is a big difference between fresh and frozen in the product. I use to go to a breakfast place that kept the toast bread in the freezer and never heard anyone complain about the toast.
Gerhard
Oh, it just keeps getting better.
Keep 'em coming guys, all we gotta do is give them enough rope.
At what point does this just become cruel?
My comment on frozen compared to fresh was in regards to Wonder type bread which I am pretty much certain I could not differentiate fresh from frozen, you on other hand must have superior taste buds.
Gerhard
Not superior, just different.
Not sure what the 'troll' reference is to, but - I mean, Wonder Bread (fresh crap or frozen)? Look around you. Do you know where you are?
Ok so let me repeat what I said. I did not advocate making Wonder bread type bread but the original poster wanted to bake it so my comment was that I did not think it was worth putting much effort into trying to bake it but I would buy a freezer and a half truck load of the bread and be done with it. I am pretty sure it takes a special kind of connoisseur that can differentiate fresh, frozen or 4 day old Wonder bread.
Gerhard
That is not repeating, that is expressing for the first time.
My read of the original post did not include anything about a 'Wonder Bread' type product, only that s/he wanted it to be sliced and last (fresh) within an automated process.
Of course I bow to your superior connoisseurness when it comes to being able to distinguish between fresh, frozen or 4 day old crap. And if you can't detect a difference, who am I to argue.
Crap is what crap is (fresh, frozen or 4 days old).
The following comments from BreadDream led me to believe that he wants to make Wonder type bread. Now if I misread these and the actual goal is to make a crusty flavourful sourdough bread I am sorry for my lack of comprehension.
Out of BreadDream's posts:
gerhard
I appreciate your true concern and am glad that the pissing war is apparently over.
I will give you a decent response tomorrow, but right now, life goes on all around me - and it's calling my name. I'll be back in the AM.
dobie
Why is wonder bread = crap exactly, and is it necessarily not compatible with artisan bread? I guess I was under the impression that wonder bread = soft crustless bread, rather than equivalent in all ways to crap, but it's not a bread available in my country so I'm not sure what it really means. Could someone explain the extreme hatred expressed in this thread for wonder bread? Does the hatred just apply to the "Wonder" brand of bread and therefore I'd have to experience it to understand it, or does it apply to all loaves containing preservatives, even some lean multigrain hearth loaf out there that just wants a longer shelf life?
EDIT: removed random quote :)
but I choose not to eat it unless I go out for breakfast and that is what is used for toast. I think what people dislike about this style of bread is what they don't like in other over processed foods that have little relation to real food. I grew up in Germany and we ate heartier breads and crusty rolls so it is hard for me to like soft fluffy flavourless Wonder type bread.
Gerhard
Perhaps I should rephrase my question as "what is wonder bread"? Why is it not "real food"?
The quote from txfarmer's sourdough pan de mie blog which I'd removed earlier:
The product in question is the industrial way of producing large quantities of 'bread' in a short time without having to have massive amounts of storage space for dough which is bulk fermenting or individual loaves which are proving.
The process cuts the time traditionally taken to produce a loaf from many hours to about 40 minutes. The ingredients, which include very large amounts of yeast, are mixed together at high speed and inflated by having a large volume of air pumped into them. They are then passed through an oven to make the outside go vaguely bread coloured before being sliced and packed in plastic. The completed product lasts in a 'fresh' state for weeks if unopened, which should, in itself, start alarm bells ringing, and collapses into a doughy mess as soon as you start to chew it. It passes through your body in a similar state because the speed of production means that the process of breaking down the flour into something digestible doesn't have time to occur. Being indigestible, the finished product has bugger all nutritional value and is suspected of being the cause of intestinal problems which have appeared in the years since the introduction of the process. E.g. the so-called 'gluten intolerance' from which so many people now claim to suffer and which has had spring up to pander to it the new industry of gluten-free products and diets.
It's not the 'fluffy and white' aspect that people object to, really. Most people can enjoy a slice of well made, soft white bread from time to time, even if they prefer the healthier alternative of whole wheat bread, but something masquerading as bread which has none of its benefits or flavours, few of its characteristics and which is almost certainly damaging to those who are unfortunate or uncaring enough to consume it.
For further reading, search online for 'Chorleywood process' and 'no time process'. In amongst the posts from people in the industry praising them as wonderful advances in food science you'll find many articles detailing what's wrong with them and what they're doing to people's bodies.
Thank you for your helpful explanation!
I just googled Chorleywood process which came up with the wiki article. I guess I am a little confused though as it contains this quote:
Chorleywood is predominant today in the UK, Australia, NZ and India - not in the US. Later on it mentions two alternative processes of note - the continuous mixing process which Wonder Bread made famous, and the batch mixing process, which is the current bread process in the US. I have no idea what the differences between them are. It also sounds like Wonder Bread is no longer in production in the States... So neither Chorleywood nor Wonder Bread are in existence there.
EDIT: I guess even if the brand and the process doesn't exist the offence is still in people's minds. But what about the claim that small time bakers use something like the Chorleywood process for "artisan" loaves? Then where does the boundary lie? Is it just the fact that it's commercial? The perceived lack of nutrition, as you mentioned? ...Honestly I do feel that if you had been starving for a few days and were either going to eat baked mud or mass-produced bread, the bread would be more nutritious...
Also trying to bear in mind that the original question was how to make bread last a long time, not how to mass-produce bread, makes this a very bloated discussion topic :)
I have no idea exactly how the US baking industry produces its bread but if the result is a sliced white loaf wrapped in plastic which lasts for more than four or five days than it's not real bread. If you squash a slice between your finger and thumb and it doesn't spring back, then it's produced using something similar to the Chorleywood process or some other 'no time' process. It will turn into a lump of dough which sticks to the roof of your mouth when you chew it because it has no gluten development. It won't be very nutritious or very digestible because it's still, essentially, raw flour, not having had time to break down as it would have done during a traditional bread-making process.
Mud or lump of dough? Well, the lump of dough will probably taste better than the mud, depending on where you are and who made the dough. They'll probably both stop you feeling hungry. The mud may at least contain some trace elements that your body can use, along with some microbes, the lack of which may have caused you to suffer from an allergy such as asthma, which the dough won't. Were I close to expiring I'd go for a mud sandwich.
One of the things which the UK's Real Bread Campaign is attempting to do is to get the government to bring in legislation which will prevent mislabelling. At the moment, anyone can sell something called 'sourdough' simply by making a loaf which tastes sour (and that's what they do, usually by adding ascetic acid or yoghurt for its lactic acid content) or 'artisan' when it's no such thing. Neither 'crusty' nor 'speciality' holds connotations of quality, so I have no idea why the Wiki article writer though that worth mentioning.
This is the Wonder bread challenge.
Gerhard
Wonder Bread Challenge
Deciding whether or not it's more nutritious than mud? A tough challenge.
I remember eating Wonder bread as a young child. Though, as I grew older, my parents were more into breads containing whole grain, my fave being Oroweat's honey wheat berry. Can't eat Oroweat anymore. There is something in it that blows me up like a balloon.
I do remember the Wonder commercials: "Builds strong bodies 12 ways!" This is an interesting commercial from the 1950's that gives an idea how they achieved their famous texture:
Wonder Bread Commercial (1950s)
thanks for that clip KathyF -
Just reading the package is amazing in itself. 'Soft Whipped' - Compare! No Holes! - No Streaks!.
Well of course it has holes, it wouldn't be fluffy otherwise. They're just small, that's all.
I can't figure out what 'No Streaks!' means, but maybe you can tell me.
Also, my memory of the commercials is that at first it was: 'Wonder Bread - Helps Build Strong Bodies 8 Different Ways'.
A few years later it became '12 Different Ways'. I still don't know what 'Way' one is, let alone the rest of them. And how did it go from eight to twelve?
Thanks again -
dobie
You're right. It started out with "8 Different Ways" and then went up to 12. The "Ways" were the vitamins and minerals that were added in to improve nutrition. I believe there was a movement in the '40s by the government to encourage enrichment to help prevent deficiencies that were rampant then that caused diseases like beri-beri.
My guess on the streaks is that the crumb would be perfectly even. Maybe the other types of commercial breads showed "streaks" from rolling the dough into loaves. That's just a guess on my part.
I also think Wonder was the bread that introduced sliced bread. I guess before you had to slice it yourself. Hence the phrase, "The best thing since sliced bread."
Yes KathiF
I think you're probably right about the streaks altho I can't imagine why it would be a big deal.
You are also right that beriberi, rickets, pellagra and even anemia are very serious diseases caused by the lack of vitamins and nutrients that are stripped away in the process of making white wheat flour.
That is why most flour is enriched, to return to the flour that which it originally contained. There is no FDA requirement in the US that flour be enriched, however since 1942, the US Army would only buy 'enriched' flour which probably had a great affect on the market.
I know that in the UK any flour milled there has to (by law) be enriched with the exception of whole wheat flour (which has not been stripped of nutrients and therefor needs no enrichment).
In a way, you could make the case that 'Wonder (if it's) Bread' is in fact 'health food' (at least by the standards of the era in which it was created).
Ouch. It hurt to write that.
dobie
in the book. "no streaks"
Implies suddenly that streaks are a problem. Negative advertising.
The same could be done if a pale bread needed to be sold... "no nasty crusts."
"no holes" or "no seeds to hurt your gums" Get the idea? "goes with every filling" (because it's practically tasteless)
Other items: No Cholesterol (suddenly items that never contained cholesterol to start with, have to label "no" or be accused of having it.
Seems to be popular to have a list of "no's" on many packages. Buyer beware!
They are probably talking about those nasty flour streaks that come from using a proofing basket... my loaves are absolutely covered in them!
Actually, Wonder bread predates the Chorleywood process. Wonder bread uses the continuous mixing process which is 100% automated. It is really more of a batter than a dough.
I was aware that Wonder bread pre-dated the CBP by about 40 years but didn't know how it was made. It seems that the continuous mixing process is not quite as horrific as the Chorlywood process: it uses a preferment which ferments for several hours. Apparently one of the advantages of the process is that it 'prevents the ageing of dough'! Heaven forfend that dough should be allowed to age!
http://www.bakerpedia.com/processes/continuous-mixing/
They did have a soft whipped version for a while but I don't know if that is still how they do it. But the hard wheat used is not appropriate for CBP. I imagine it is similar in taste though. I will have to get some Wonder bread and see if it tears in half like the whipped ones used to advertise (Sunbeam commercials of old showed this).
Perhaps the same thing renamed because Sunbeam was an English car manufacturer, when we had such things.
The CBP was developed specifically to suit soft British flour but that's because it was initially designed for the smaller producers as a way of fighting back against the big guys. The big guys may have been using continuous mix with hard Canadian wheat at the time for all I know. I'm not sure what most bread was like before CBP became mainstream because I was a kid and didn't take much notice of the difference. I just remember the floppy sliced stuff arriving. I'm pretty sure that what it replaced wasn't anywhere near as good as some of the bread I've seen, and baked, since, however.
ccsdg
Let me assure you that 'Wonder (if it's) Bread' is alive and well (poor choice of word) both as a corporation and a culture here in the United States.
From what I gather, it is very similar in quality (another poor choice of word) to bread (yet another poor choice of word) that is made with the Chorleywood process.
I think you're right that the 'Chorleywood process' doesn't exist here in the States. I've never heard of it until this thread.
I also think the original post implied (by wanting to use an automated process) a mass produced product. BreadDream's later posts seem to bare that out. But I may be wrong.
dobie
owned Wonder Bread, Twinkies (2 month shelf life cake) and other nutritional wonders and went bankrupt a few years ago and those brands disappeared for a year or so, that is where the confusion probably came from. Wonder Bread brand was bought by another large U.S. bakery and is being made again. I can remember the news was filled with stories about people coming to Canada to buy Twinkies because they had run out in American supermarkets. In Canada the Wonder bread brand is owned by Weston bakeries and continued baking the bread throughout the 'crisis' and Twinkies where made by some big bakery in Quebec.
Gerhard
Gerhard
I believe you are accurate for the most part regarding the 'Great Twinkie Shortage' of a few years ago.
I would add tho (and I might be wrong), that it was only 1-3 months before Twinkies were back on the market, produced by another corporate entity that bought up the production plants. The newspapers here in New York gave us daily updates on their status (you'd have thought they were landing a man on the moon).
Of course I never noticed, but also never heard of a shortage of Wonder (if it's) Bread, but that might have happened as well and the news just never made it to me. I will say that Wonder (if it's) Bread is currently on the shelves here, which is where it should remain.
Thanks - dobie
I was speaking to a friend who knows about these things (he actually eats Twinkies) who said that it took about 2 months before it was clear that the 'Twinkie Brand' would be bought up but that it took about 4 months after that to be fully re-supplied throughout the US.
Thank you Dobie - I did not mention Wonder bread because I've never bought it or tasted it in my life. But I was seeking advise on a soft loaf that lasts long.....I guess the Wonder bread was the best at that? Ultimately I just want to make tasty bread but something with a longer shelf life due to my objectives
Real soft, white bread is not going to last for weeks unless frozen or part baked and sealed under sterile conditions. By definition, what you are talking about making could only be a product which approximates to what the Americans here are calling Wonder bread. Whether or not it's what you had in mind, you did mention bread which lasts for weeks so Wonder bread is what you're talking about, even if you weren't aware of it.
Having read through the various posts in the thread so far, it strikes me that you haven't mentioned a number of important conditions in your intended market region. The location may not matter but the environment does. What are the typical temperature ranges and humidity levels? Is there a reliable and affordable source of electricity? Can storage conditions be maintained in optimal ranges?
All of those will factor into the longevity of the bread you wish to produce. If the setting is hot and humid, you could freeze the bread for local sales but it won't travel very far before molding. Even sourdough breads will soon mold in such conditions. Artificial preservatives become about the only game in town to accomplish your stated goals. Those aren't anything I want in my bread but they may be acceptable to your customers. Aseptic packaging had also been mentioned earlier but I don't know whether it would be practical in your market, from either a cost or a technology perspective.
If climate conditions in your market can be described as temperate, with moderate to low levels of humidity. sourdough bread may allow you to forego the artificial preservatives. Maybe. You will have to do some testing to see what is or is not practical. All the more so since you want to have even a small scale operation to be highly automated.
Paul
Yes, the environment is also a factor because its typically hot and humid. I would also have access to electricity made reliable by generators. It is not my wish to pack the bread with 'bad' ingredients but I do think they may be necessary for the longevity that I'm after
Ok, so it is no longer AM. Sorry to take so long to get back. I woke up to a power outage (there’s a pretty good blow going on outside – east coast USA), a sick dog and a balky graphics card on this computer which crashes every 10-15 minutes. But we all have our own bears to cross (Firesign Theater).
First, I would like to say that I am not (or at least, try not to be) a bread snob. I will eat or not what is put before me and be thankful for it (after all, I didn't have to cook it). I would never embarrass my host with my opinions unless demanded to do so.
I do not hate 'Wonder (if it's) Bread' by corporate brand or style. As you said (and I'm paraphrasing) gerhard, ‘it would not often be my bread of choice’. I was surprised and pleased to read that you were raised in Germany and are well familiar with a breadth of bread styles. I will say tho, that some of the best pulled pork (true BBQ) sandwiches I've ever had were presented on a Wonder style bun that served well as an unassuming, flavorless vehicle to shovel that lovely pork into my mouth. It has its place.
To address your quotes of BreadDream; In all fairness, these quotes came after the original post and with a fair amount of response. I do appreciate BreadDream hanging in there and continuing to add more information.
Directly, ‘I want the location of the actual bakery to be irrelevant because my focus is bread that can last a few weeks like the US’. I don’t think the location can be considered irrelevant in this endeavor. Second (and I’m referencing some of BreadDream’s subsequent posts and paraphrasing), it is not necessary to ‘load bread up with a lot of undesirable, chemical additives’ to get it to last.
I assure you that I (and probably most others in this forum) can produce for you a white, fluffy, ‘Wonder’ style sandwich loaf or rolls, leavened only by a true sourdough culture with its inherent longevity, that 98% of the clientele would not even associate with as a sourdough bread. All the while not being quite so flavorless as ‘Wonder (if it’s) Bread’ and could potentially have the required shelf life. A lot would have to do with proper handling and packaging. A little oil in the dough, perhaps some ascorbic acid (vitamin C) might be helpful. I know some milk (even powdered) can help make a ‘Country White’ bread softer, fluffier and more tender but I don’t know if it would help or harm longevity.
JonObrien, PMcCool and drogon/Gordon (BTW, I’ve enjoyed your posts folks) bring up great points about freezing or par-baking and freezing the product for distribution as well as proper packaging. They obviously know a lot more about these matters than I do. I’m paying attention.
Regarding the second quote; ‘He wants to get soft fresh white bread like we are used to’. Ummh, I don’t even know where he is, let alone what he might or might not be ‘used to’. Another reason that location is relevant is that it might give helpful cultural clues as to the meaning of the phrase ‘used to’.
So, BreadDream – own up, be a man (or a woman) and give more meaningful information. Where is 'back home', 'the interior' and 'over there' as JonObrien asked? Are you afraid someone will steal your idea? What’s up with the secrecy? Spill, baby, spill.
For those of you that have not been afforded the opportunity to taste ‘Wonder (if it’s) Bread’, you’re not missing much. It is basically a flavorless concoction that may well do more harm than good to one’s health. Yes, it is light and fluffy and innocuous and unfortunately - quite ubiquitous here in the States (and regretfully, probably abroad sooner or later). Not that it’s evil (well, maybe it is), but in my opinion, it just shouldn’t be such a prevalent world food source.
Ccsdg – I don’t think it is ‘hatred’ of ‘Wonder (if it’s) Bread’ so much as it is disdain. And that disdain is not specifically at ‘Wonder’ as a corporation (all major commercial bakeries make similar products), it is toward all that is so piss-poor as bread goes (and I think urine would have more flavor and nutritional value than WB). Also, that there is so much of it, and is so accepted by so many as ‘good bread’. Please, make no mistake; I love good, soft and tender (real) bread from any culture.
gerhard – you lost me with the ‘buy a big freezer and half a truckload of the stuff’. Not to reignite the flame, but a ‘half truckload’ would be at best, inefficient and you were clearly thinking in a ‘business’ rather than ‘bread’ context so I found it exasperating. Going against what I would consider both good business and good bread sense. I suppose I could have done better than the ‘give them enough rope’ post, so I apologize for that, and I appreciate your posts.
Further: Myth or fact? ‘Wonder (if it’s) Bread’ is not leavened with yeast, merely by the air whipped into the dough. Does anybody know?
And finally, to close, I will quote from my own earlier post because I think it is so relevant:
‘I have a dream that one day this bread will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident; that not all breads (unlike men) are created equal (MLK revised).’
Thank you all - dobie
Sorry to have to have to tell you this but, here in the UK, we've had bread as crap as yours since the mid-1960s, thanks to the Chorleywood process, and I've no doubt that the plague became global long ago.
The no time process uses both air whipped into the dough and very large amounts of yeast to create its utterly un-breadlike product.
Disdain: spot on. Hatred's far too powerful an emotion to waste on rubbish.
As the Mother Land goes, so go the States. Or prehaps vice versa. Regardless, it is a sad mess of affairs when a plague like this spreads so quickly, so thoroughly throughout the world. All in the name of profit and health be damned.
I will say however, that at least here in the States, there seems to be a rising tide (over the last 10-20 years) of more people appreciating, in fact - demanding better food. It seems to be getting to the point that it is even having an economic impact, affecting the choices that business' make. Even the proliferation of dressed up crap (8 grain, 12 grain, 16 grain) bread reflects this, I think.
I also think that the internet has actually contributed to this by the free exchange of ideas so broadly across this orb.
Here's to hope - dobie
The UK has been pulling back from the brink, too, but there's still a long way to go. We have the Real Bread Campaign attempting to educate people about bread and promoting those places selling real bread, and there's actually one supermarket selling some bread which the campaign considers 'real', but the vast majority, over 80%, of our commercially available bread is still made using the Chorlywood process.
But in one respect, I have to thank those 'food' scientists from the Chorlywood baking laboratories: if their process hadn't swept edible bread from the shops, I doubt I'd have started making my own.
That is a very interesting link. I will give it a better looking over tomorrow when I have time.
It begs the question tho, how does one define 'real bread'. When the ingredient list is simply flour, salt and yeast, I would think it would be an easy call and you would have to say that it is 'real' bread.
However, my Significant Other is constantly coming home with various breads from local bakeries with that same basic ingredient list (or close to it), that, even tho they look great, when you actually taste them, you realize they're just another painted up whore.
That statement is actually a little unfair. I would like to apologize to all the whores in the world who are better at what they do than these breads are at being bread.
Yet, as uninteresting as they may be, I guess I would have to say (begrudgingly) that they are 'real' bread.
It's kind of like messing up a wetdream - who knew it could be done?
So, I think I know what you mean when you say you are thankful that the markets demise has led you to bake your own. I propose that even our worst failures are usually more interesting than most of what is out there and that even tho it is truly 'real' bread, it is just not truly 'real' good bread.
Man, am I a whiney bitch or what?
We have discovered successes here and there, but upon returning to those bakeries (and sampling other loaves), it has always turned out that the success was just a happy accident.
It's unfortunate. Not for the lack of bread, but because I'm looking for a bakery that would be worth working at.
Sorry, I'm babbling on. G'night mate.
dobie
The campaign does define it as being made from the four basic ingredients but also as being made without the use of processing aids or any other artificial additives. From there it starts talking about making better bread, listing six 'desirables' starting with longer fermentation, preferably in the presence of sourdough bacteria (that's big in the UK as sourdough is not at all popular here); not made solely from roller-milled, white flour; made in one continuous process - no part-baking or freezing of the dough; ...
When the campaign started it was quite hard line when it came to qualifying for listing your bread as 'real bread' but it's since softened its stance, listing half-a-dozen attributes, its 'better bread' desirables, which people can claim for their loaves over and above the basic requirement of being additive-free.
Jon,
Very interesting. I am looking forward to exploring that link at depth in my AM (tomorrow morning).
I thought that 'sourdough' would be more prevalent in the UK than here in the US. You know, history and all that. I'm surprised.
What with the 'Livery' (essentially trade unions, correct?) and apprentice system (well, if you're a good christian), I was thinking that the tradition might have survived.
Perhaps tomorrow we should start a new thread regarding the History and Differences between UK and US Baking. I certainly have many questions I would like to ask.
dobie
jon,
This is a great link to an amazing undertaking. I have just scratched the surface and have learned so much. Do you have any direct involvement with them?
If anyone is listening and cares to, scroll down to the 'What Is Real Bread' link and have a go at it.
It reminds me in many ways of Jamie Oliver's (one of your boys, eh) 'Food Revolution' that was all the rage here in the States a few years back. Altho, obviously this campaign predates his, I think they are both important persuits.
I was impressed with not only the detail of the email that the Real Bread Campaign (RBC) sent for government consideration but also the government's response which I thought was extraordinarily forthright, well considered and in good detail compared to what we would get here in the States and without a great sense of the 'Cover Your Own Ass' mentality so typical of so many politicians.
Regarding that about flour, I'm not so sure it's 'fortification' as much as it is 'fornification'. If you could get the milling industry to not bastardize the product as they do, there would be no need to fornicate the flour.
I think we should start a thread on this topic - Bread, nutrition, history, governent involvement, etcetera.
If you build it, they will come. I'll start the thread myself if need be, but I think it would be better coming from you (as it is your home after all).
I would suggest you could start it by just re-posting as a thread the above post that contains the link, or however you see fit to do it.
Thank you very, very much.
dobie
As you seem to have some idea of what you'd like to see the discussion include I'll leave it to you to instigate it and I'll join in if I have anything to contribute.
Roger that JonObrien -
I think the 'Real Bread Campaign' would be all inclusive of where I see it going. Let me get a little deeper into my reading of it and then I will start a thread in regards to that.
I would like the thread to include such questions as 'what in the hell is a ‘crusty bap?' There are so many words, phrases and uses thereof that are unfamiliar between the UK and the US.
For example what in the hell does 'heaven forfend' mean? Never heard of the phrase, yet it sounds familiar.
I don't know if George Bernard Shaw actually ever said it or wrote it or not, but it is often quoted to him, that the UK and the US are 'two nations divided by a common language'. I just want to understand a little more.
I'm taking a risk here, but please take this in the kindest way: You are a crusty old salt, aren't ya? You speak your mind and give no quarter and I appreciate that.
As always, I will look forward to you joining in.
dobie
...are round bread rolls. There are two varieties of which I'm aware: crusty and floured. The crusty ones are domed, shiny and, err, a bit crusty (a baguette would laugh at how crusty); the floured variety is soft and usually a bit flatter. They're usually white, although the floured ones are sometimes wholemeal and, now I come to think about it, I have had malted baps, which were closer to the floured bap than the crusty. The floured bap is probably the closest thing we have to a hamburger bun, I suppose. I think, but wouldn't swear to it without checking, that they originated in Scotland.
'Heaven forfend' is an anachronistic way of saying 'heaven forbid!'. You may have heard it while watching films set a hundred years or more in the past but it's used in the UK in a tongue-in-cheek, mock-shock, ironic manner. At least, that's the way I use it.
GBS did make the 'two nations' comment and he was right. I lived amongst Americans in Paris in the early 1970s and inadvertently stepped on several sets of toes because British and American English are so easily seen as the same language when they're not really. We're probably better informed of the differences than you are because we tend to get your films, television and books undiluted, whereas your media companies and publishers don't credit you with being able to handle raw British English, so they remake a good percentage of our television programmes and films and 'translate' much of our popular fiction before they let you near it. Seeing the word 'trousers' could make a whole book unintelligible, apparently. Too many vowels, maybe. It's a self-perpetuating myth: you don't understand a lot of British English because you're rarely exposed to it. If you were, you'd pick it up just as we've, mostly, picked up American English.
Crusty old salt? What does that mean? (Just joking) Yes, I suppose so. I've never seen the point in prevarication. It wastes people's time and is less likely to get the point across than being direct. And I have found that reasonable people usually appreciate it. Thanks. I don't know about giving no quarter, though. Everyone gets one chance to yield before I shrug and go for it. ;-)
Thanks for the reply Jon. Sorry for taking so long to get back. I'm still getting used to how this forum works. I have to go thru the whole thread from top to bottom to check new replies and I must have missed yours in my haste.
So, Baps. Turns out I've been making them for years. 'Heaven forfend', ahh, I knew I'd heard it before and you're right, probably in an old British movie that we on rare occaison get to see in the States.
PBS (a nation-wide Public Broadcast Service network that is primarily 'educational' in nature) sometimes broadcasts original BritComs. 'Monty Python' and 'Fawlty Towers' of course and I remember liking 'To The Manor Born' and 'Chef'. There were others but they escape my memory at the moment.
You're right, we don't get much original British content. As I remember, our 'All In The Family' was based on your 'Till Death Do We Part' and I'm sure there have been many other re-makes of British originals.
30-40 years ago, trousers was in quite common use here. You hardly ever hear it anymore but I would would imagine most people over 30 know what it means. The under 30 crowd, I'm not so sure.
I'm a big fan of Eddie Izzard and love his stand-up DVDs. But on occassion I do have to turn up the volume and hit reverse to try and figure a word or phrase. But you're right, it gets easier over time.
I will say tho, that the British accents are very well respected here in the States. They canote civility; an honest, trustworthy, gentle and kind demeanor. Of course my history books tell me differently as they do about our own 'freedom for all' statement. You can however get people to do things they would not normally do if you present it to them with a proper British accent.
I do appreciate that you don't beat around the bush and yes, you do seem reasonable about it. Thanks again.
dobie
"I'm still getting used to how this forum works."
The software's pretty flaky, in my opinion. It seems, sometimes, to attach comments to the wrong post, so if you're not getting email notifications for all comments they're easy to miss.
"PBS (a nation-wide Public Broadcast Service network that is primarily 'educational' in nature)"
There's an example of how much of your culture has been exported: I know what PBS is, what its role is and that it's one of the few places you'll find British programmes being broadcast in the States. And I've been a Lake Wobegon fan for a long time.
"...British accents are very well respected here in the States. They canote civility; an honest, trustworthy, gentle and kind demeanor."
Is that why British actors are so often cast as villains in American films and TV programmes? It might explain why Hugh Laurie used an American accent for House, I suppose.
I have seen misplaced posts on TFL, but never attributed blame. Apparently, it is not always the fault of the author.
I have only joined and posted to three forums in the past 20 years because those are all I thought worthwhile. One for 'BBQ' (now defunct), one for gardening (thehelpfulgardener.com) and this one (TFL).
thehelpfulgardener uses if not the same, a very similar structure as this forum does, yet they are very different. As structure goes, there are many more things that I appreciate about the ease of navigation on 'gardener' than TFL. But I will bite my tongue because I think this is a very good forum and I'm sure I've pissed off more than my fair share already.
As to email, I use it when I need it. Perhaps every 6 months or so I might check in, or whenever I need contact. I do not check in anywhere near daily, unless it behooves me. I also do not carry a cell phone, I have never 'texted' anyone, nor twittered, facebooked or any of the rest of it. I am long-winded enough. Let it be.
I meant no disrespect regarding the PBS thing. I had no idea you would know what I meant. Radio-wise, do you get 'Car Talk', 'Wait Wait, Don't Tell Me or various other PBS broadcasts of the ilk? Pretty good weekend fare around here in the States when all you have is an FM radio (hey, it can happen).
Re: Lake Wobegon and Garrison Keillor, glad to hear you are a fan. You guys get this stuff? By that, I mean, not 'do you understand it', but that you get it broadcast there? If so, I'm surprised. BTW, it's always the pioneers with the arrows in their backs.
Regarding 'British actors are so often cast as villains in American films'.
This is not on you , but on me, for being so out of touch with the mainstream. I do not know any of the references you made. Sorry.
But I have seen such castings occur in certain 'action/adventure' movies in the States which I believe was done because it was 'against character' and thus, exciting to the States appetite.
But I will stand by what I said about the USA's love of the British accents on a street level.
BTW, when you know of a comedian that rises to the level of Spike Milligan, Roy 'Chubby' Brown, Eddie Izzard, Billy Connolly, or even Jimmy Carr, let me know (different styles, yet funny and/or insightfull none the less).
Have you seen the various 'Julia Child' shows on PBS (I'll bet you have), the early series in particular that was based on the 'Mastering The Art Of French Cooking' book?
She gives a lot of good info on the French 'slap and fold' method as well as shaping loaves and home oven steam. Perhaps not definitive, but helpfull.
I will rest on that.
dobie
Guys, why don't you start a new thread
Too many imponderables to really know.
BreadDream -
You make a good point. I've pondered it for a while now.
As the song goes 'Where Do You Start?'
I don't know. I am glad to hear suggestions.
And, I'm glad to hear from you (it's been awhile). I was wondering where you were. Please know I mean this all very kindly because after all, it is your thread.
Have you gotten anything useful from these responses? I haven't forgotten about your initial question and am curious. You did get a lot of 'on topic' responses (as well as some that went a bit abroad) and I'm curious what you might try?
What do you think might be worthwhile pursuing now?
Can you tell me where all the principles are located, broadly, geographically? I do think it would be helpful.
Has any of this led you to any usefull consideration?
dobie
Blakes 7
Red Dwarf
Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy
and the biggie:
Dr. Who
Thank you rgconner
I have taken notes and will investigate.
dobie
Actually, I would rather forget Dr. Who, if that's OK with you. It was fun when it first appeared and I was 12 but, 52 years later, it doesn't impress anywhere near as much.
HHGTTG, on the other hand, is sheer genius. DNA is much missed.
Red Dwarf ticks all my boxes, it's hysterical :-D Never been a big fan of Dr Who.
Don't forget Bill Bailey, he's brilliant. His Guide to the Orchestra is just a work of genius. Jo Brand is also very funny.
other than freezing that I've run across for prolonging the life of bread, would be putting it in a glass. That entails vacuum packing while hot into hot jars or cans.
Wheat loaves that last for weeks on end comes too close to an urban legend. Wake up.
Twinkies did cross my mind... but they are more cake than bread.
Drying and crackers are also possibilities. Steam and microwave can help rehydrate the bread but it won't be fresh.
Melba toast comes to mind for a sweet bread. Sliced and dried. Dipped into tea or coffee to rehydrate. :)
MO -
As always, many interesting ideas. I particularly liked the one of vacuum packing in glass.
Obviously glass packing is iffy by the shatter risk in transport.
However, one could freeze the loaves to a solid form and vacuum seal them in an appropriate plastic bag and then let them thaw. You could then pack it and stack it however bread is normally delivered.
I don't know how the bread would survive such treatment, but there should be no condensation inside and so little risk of mold and such.
I know this falls outside of the description of 'real bread' by a step or two, but if it could deliver a better product than 'Wonder (if it's) Bread' over how ever many miles to hungry customers, it might be worth the extra effort and expense.
I don't know, but an interesting thought.
Of course, we haven't yet considered 'pickling' (chuckle chuckle).
dobie
Actually they do package baked goods in packages that have the oxygen flushed out and replaced by pure nitrogen which inhibits staling, fungal and bacterial growth. This is a safe method and not that complicated to achieve longer shelf life, our atmosphere is something like 80% nitrogen to begin with.
Gerhard
good to know Gerhard -
Is it expensive?
dobie
Mum used to be a nurse in the military, and one day the Colonel ordered a cellar in the hospital where she was stationed to be cleared out. Underneath all the discarded junk, they found several crates of canned bread left over from WW1.
Apparently it was still edible, even after sixty years - if a bit dry LOL...
I was at the bakery show, called Bakery Showcase, in Toronto last May and they had a system that generated the nitrogen on site and they touted it as being more cost efficient and safer than other gases but since we have not use for such a system I only listened while they where doing their sales spiel to someone that seemed genuinely interested in purchasing.
We do receive a lot of nuts in vacuum packs now, it sure beats the days when cashews came in large tin cans, cut my hand on those more than once.
Gerhard