Very dense and heavy crumb
Todays bake...
The crumb is very dense... somewere and quiet airy elsewere. It didnt really pop in the oven (as can be seen from the lack of stretch on the scoring). The crust is very thin, crispy and tastes pretty good. The crumb also tastes nice but I was hoping for a good ovenspring and an air'y moist crumb... and bigger breads.
The recipe
360g Levain
760g Wheat Breadflour
50g Coarse Speltfour
540g (cold) Water
18g Salt
What I did
I mixed 12g 50% Rye sourdough, 16g water and 12g Rye flour. Left it overnioght in the oven with only the light on. Next day I could see some activity in the levain. Then I added 40g water and 40g Whole Wheat flour. After 4 hours it had raised 1,5 time its original size. Usually it is pretty normal that it doesent double at the second feeding. At the final and third feeding I added 120g water and 120g white bread flour. This is usually when the levain doubles in 2-3 hours and tripples after 4 hours. This time was a little different since it just barely doubled after 4 hours. At the third feeding I also mixed the flour and water for the dough in the mixer and left it for Autolyse untill the levain was ready.
When the levain was ready (just barely doubled at 4 hours) I added it with the salt and mixed in the mixer for 5 minutes. I noticed that it was a little more wet than usualt, but nothing to be worried about. The dough was transferred to another container and left for 3 hours, with some S&F every 30-40 min. After 3 hours the dough was put in the fridge overnight (14 hours).
Next day I formed 2 Boules and left them for 1 hour to gain a little roomtemp and proof a little. In the meantime I turned the oven on at 450 deg with a pan inside. Then I formed some Batards, put them in some baskets and left them to proof. After 30 min, I could see that the hole that I poked only got 1/2 out slowly so it was time to get the breads in the oven. To make steam I used a wet, warmed towel that I placed in the pan under the bakingstone. I even managed to crack the pan when I added some (boiling) water to it. Now I didnt only end up with medicore breads, but I also had to explain to my wife why her precious stoneware pan was cracked all the way though in a beautiful root pattern...
Somewere along this proces, something (beside the pan) went a little wrong, but the question is... were?
with the light on it gets to 92 F which is too hot for the poor levain. Yest reproduction slows down dramatically at 92 F
2nd ,Sylvia's steaming towels are placed in a pan half full of water before going on the oven and they go in when the oven hits baking temperature then set the timer for 15 minutes. The stone temperature is 15 minutes behind the oven temperatue IF you use a pyrex or stone pan it will bread=k otherwise. If you use a cheap metal pan from Goodwill there isn't an issue about breaking the pan
After final shaping make sure the bread rises 50% - no more or the bloom and spring will be lackluster. The poke test is pretty much worthless.
That should take care of it. Happy baking
the oven, it would be to warm too. What I do is putting something to keep the door a little open and that keep the temperature very steady at 30 deg C (86 deg F)..
About the pan... Lesson learned the hard way. Next time Ill use the cheap metal pan!
Regarding the last point....
I dont understand that some people can bulk ferment a dough for 3+ hours, retard for 20+ hours, shape the loaves and then proof them for 1-2 hours.and still get the ovenspring. I only proofed the loaves 30 min after final shaping, so it should'nt make that big of a drfference, should it?
Usually I shape the breads before the fridge after 3 hours of bulk ferment at roomtemp. Then I bake them straight out of the fridge 12-18 hours later. But that method still dosent give me that ovenspring Ive seen a few times before.
Sometimes baking with sourdough can be so fustrating.
into a boule then rest an hour ., The do a final shape and let rise 50% only usually 40 minutes to 1 hour max.before baking if you want good bloom and spring. This is the same method D,Snyder uses for his SJSD - it never fails.IF i let it final proof 1-2 hours - no spring or bloom is the result. By the time the poke test ells you to get it in the oven - it is too late. Look at the dough and not the clock - the dough never lies but the clock always will. No spring and bloom almost always means - over proofed.
Give it a try and you will be converted.
Happy baking
I let the dough retard in the fridge for 14 hours. After taking it out I pre-shaped it and let it rest for an hour and then did the final shape that rested for only 30 min. The only difference beside shorter time in the fridge, is that you let the final shape rest longer. I didnt final proof for 1-2 hours.
There must be somthing else thats causing wrong.
the 3 hours of rising and folding and putting a large mass of dough into the fridge. The dough contains a large portion of levain so I suspect it is fermenting too much before it is retarded. I might shorten the 3 hours and/or divide the dough in half so it cools faster in the fridge.
that I used a very large plasticbox for the fridge and the dough was only about 3 cm high, it was only 1700 grams of total weight. Is that a large amount? I assume it would get cold fast and stop fermenting since it was (IMO) pretty thin, no?
but it will keep fermenting. That brings us back to the levain. The dough must have been getting rather puffy with all the folding in those three hours, no? do you think the dough was far enough along to do a final shaping and a rise without chilling?
I did notice that it had many airbubles worked in and was getting pretty firmed up after all those S&F. Beside that it had raised and was puffy through the 3 hours. If it was already ready for final proofing? It might but thats what I usually do. I let it ferment after the mixer for 3 hours, shape the loaves and throw them in the fridge, with similar results... lack of ovenspring.
So you think I shouldnt S&F after mixing with the mixer to prevent overfermenting the dough?
I think you should S&F but perhaps after sticking it into the fridge. Use the refrigerator to cool down and stiffen the dough or mix up the dough with ice cold water, same thing. You already have a good sized population of yeast and want to extend the time it takes to ferment the fresh flour. Mixing generates heat and I'm also guessing that the mixing of two doughs generated a little bit more heat than usual. You are working a high hydration dough and it needs the folds, perhaps more of them as fermentation progresses.
The dough contains a lot of fermented dough when mixing it up. According to your observations, I would guess that it would be ready to bake at room temp (?) in 5 hours after mixing. Yeast multiplies exponentially under ideal conditions meaning it doubles its population every 45 to 90 minutes, In 3 hours the population is so large that chilling, to slow yeast growth will have minimal effect. Sort of like applying the brakes on your car one second before hitting something.
To sum up, try just one of the following with the next bake and a old tin for steam:
was just a new thing I had to try to get more flavor and sour out of the bread. I usually use 180g of levain. Even at that amount, it still have a tendency to overproof, so maybe increasing the levain amount was not the greatest move, when I look back. Not without compensating somehow.
Interesting point about the dough temp Mini. I never took that into consideration before. But I do see why it i could be important. Do you measure the dough temperature?
I will try to slow fermentation with the next bake, starting by using less levain.
Sort of. I stick my fingers in my ingredients and dough taking mental notes that I soon forget if they aren't too unusual. Not too scientific I know. but most of my ingredients are a steady room temp of about 22° to 24°C.
Any kind of warmth will speed up fermentation, also more fluid and the particular grain your starter prefers.
One thing to think about when it comes to flavour. Since you find yourself over-proofing to get more flavour, perhaps a different way to find flavour is needed.
Additions: Try cutting off crusts of day old bread, crumbling and soaking it into your starter build or roasting some of the flour in the recipe. Spices or herbs can also add flavour. Toast the seeds, nuts or sprouted grains before adding or try...
Substitutions: ... other liquids in the dough. Buttermilk adds a fair amount of sour and so does yoghurt, especially when past the expiration date and not mouldy. Infusions like tea (herb, green, specialty) coffee or wine. Changing part or all of the flour in the recipe. Try combinations of other grain or seed flours. Cooked or raw fruit or vegetable juices or purees. (remember to cook or scald root veg.)
Soaking the flour and liquids longer before combining with rising power. Retard sooner. or use less levain or try making another sourdough culture from scratch or feeding an existing one different carbohydrates.
Just wanted to know if it was a normal procedure to measure the dough temperature. I think Ive seen it done by Ken Forkish in one of his videos. He also measure the water temperature I think.
Regarding more flavour, I really ment a little more sour. Not so much the changing the flavour in a different direction. But it was some nice propositions and I think that the Crust and yoghurt suggestion would be the way to go to gain more sourness.
I will experiement a lot once I get comfortable with the processes of working with sourdough. But first I need to make a bread I really love on regular basis.
I would say that there are very few procedures that are "normal". If you are talking about large production environments then I would say that dough temperature is usually counted for. After all, the dough and room temperature are the two things to control for consistent timing.
As to the people here, you will find that some people take the dough temperature and some don't. It really depends on whether or not you are keeping an eye on your dough vs your eye on the clock. Of course if you are retarding the dough then you might not need to be as precise in temperatures.
For me, I will usually take the dough temperature after mixing for sourdoughs just to have a reference point. I figure that since the fermentation time is pretty long, the most important factor is going to be room temperature unless you use a insulated container. This is an over simplified way of thinking, but I tend to babysit my dough more when working with sourdough.
However, when working with commercial yeast I usually calculate the water temperature to get the correct final dough temperature. My Excel spreadsheets all have a section to add the information to calculate the temperature of water to use in case I want to do that. The hardest part about that is the friction factor which takes some experimenting and can vary based on the composition of the bread and amount of dough. If you make the same bread often (like I recommend), then you will quickly learn the friction factor.
I only use 10% pre-fermented flour for these kinds of bread and you are using almost twice that amount. Things will happen much faster for you and faster isn't better most always when it comes to SD..
Happy baking,
Im still laughing of this. From one extreme to another. Made some changes like proposed and this is what I got...
http://imgur.com/MKpUscc
Hmm cant link to imgur anymore.... Oh well here is what I changed.
My starter was slow this time. Very slow! I had to feed and discard 2 times before the final feeding. I realised it was late after the final feeding so after 2 hours, were the Levain doubled, I had to store it in the fridge for the night. This time I only made 270g of starter, compared to last time were I used 360g. Next morning I mixed the cold starter with the flour and water and left it to Autolyse for 30 min before I mixed the salt in. This time though I didnt use the mixing machine but just pinched the salt into the dough in a plastic box. After 3 hours (like last time) with S&F every 30 min I formed the breads, put them in baskets and left them in the frigde for 9 hours. The dough had a temperature of 23 deg C when it was formed to breads btw. I used a hot towel in an Alu Pan and added boiling water to it. Allmost like last time but this time I didnt crack my wifes stoneware.
So to sum up...
So which ones did the difference? or was it maybe all of them?
in the fridge give you a more sour bread?
Actually it may have added a little more sourness. Hard to determine since I have never made a bread that popped that much in the oven. This enormous ovenspring have affected the taste quiet much. It doesent taste like any breads I made before. I also think it has an influence on the crust, makin it thinner, more flexible but still very crisp.
Anyway, what do you think made the difference?
this time. How does the crumb compare to the original post pic?
this time. It got the biggest ovenspring I had ever seen in any of my breads. The crust was very thin but crisp and the crumb was very air'y and light compared to the last bake. Here is a picture...
Now the question is why it poped so much in the oven.
the dough was not over proofed but slightly under proofed which explains the cracking in the bloom - my Friday bake this week did the same thing. it is always better to be slightly under proofed than over proofed when it comes to bread:-) having the starter fully active helps with the holes as well.
This one looks almost perfect and then next time I would let it proof a bit more..
Well done and happy baking
I think the hardest part about breadmaking is to know when the dough is ready to be retarded. I feel like I have to get the timing right at bulk fermenting. After bulk fermenting I form the breads and put them in the fridge. Next day I bake them straight out of the fridge. So if give it a little to much time at bulk fermenting, my breads are overproofed.
I could shorten the bulk ferment by an hour or so and put the dough in the fridge. Then the next day I could form the breads and let them proof untill they were ready, but i havent tried that... yet.
Now that Im thinking about it, it sounds like a better plan because I would be able to use the poke test which is more precise than knowing when the dough is ready for the fridge after bulk ferment.