Maintaining Eric Kayser's Liquid Sourdough Starter
Hi,
I just made my first sourdough starter about a week ago, using the instructions given in Eric Kayer's The Larousse Book of Bread. According to Eric Kayser, the liquid sourdough starter is ready for use on Day 4. I therefore made a boule with the 4-day-old liquid starter and I was much encouraged by the result.
But when it comes to caring for the starter, it seems to me that Eric Kayser's instructions fly contrary to what I read on the internet. In his book, Eric Kayer suggests refreshing the starter at 3-day intervals by adding only 50% of its weight in water and flour (i.e., if I have 300g of starter, I am to add 75g of water and 75g of flour to refresh the starter.) This translates to a ratio of 4:1:1 for maintaining the starter. I've come across suggestions for maintenance ratio on blogs and resources for sourdough baking that ranged from 1:1:1 to 1:5:5 (and I think even 1:10:10), and I also came across cautions made against adding flour and water that are less than the starter in weight. Eric Kayser further does not mention discarding any part of the starter.
I decided to go with the collective wisdom that I read online and refreshed the starter on day 5 using a 1:1:1 ratio. The starter unfortunately turned sluggish and by today, had developed an off smell that's distinctly different from the pleasant aroma that was present on Day 4. I threw out the starter just now and am now thinking I should perhaps try following Eric Kayser's instructions to the letter instead. But I'm really curious: Does Eric Kayser's ratio of 4:1:1 for maintaining the starter sound right to you?
I appreciate any thoughts and feedback on this.
Thanks,
HC
... isn't the hooch that starts to appear if you leave a starter alone for 5 days or more? It's alcohol produced by the culture and mixes back in - adding to the flavour - when you next feed it. The smell then disappears.
Plenty of people on TFL, myself included, regularly leave our starters unfed and in the fridge for many days (sometimes weeks) until it's time to build it up for a bake. Usually I aim - for a 100% hydration starter - to feed it about 4:1:1 - and that produces a lively bubbly starter at room temperature in the 8-12 hour window.
Those weird-sounding 1:5:5 ratios you mention are appropriate for decanting. There are plenty of bakers who, say, for one medium-weight loaf, decant 10g of active starter, mix it into somewhere between a 1:3:5 (starter:water:flour) to 1:5:5 ratio, and then leave it a little longer to build up. It works fine. I do something akin to this - on a much bigger scale - to develop tanginess in my SF-style sourdoughs. Many on this forum have also had success with a once-a-week feed then, as needed, adding it - unfed - to their dough straight from the fridge and letting time get to work.
EK is just playing safe by recommending a three-day feed cycle. It will produce a culture that responds quickly when you need to build it. He also adds instant dried yeast to many of his recipes. Hmm, perhaps playing it a little too safe? Most bakery books seem to want their readers to commit to similar build cycles but they don't reflect the once-a-week needs of many home bakers and it can become very confusing. And intimidating. A lot just give up. It's great that you haven't.
I'm not sure where the 1:1:1 consensus comes from. 1:1:1 produces huge volumes of surplus culture. Unless you're baking commercial volumes daily, it might not be appropriate advice to build with this ratio. If anything, my sense is that TFLers are very relaxed about maintaining starters. They are nearly indestructible (the starters, that is) which is great because it allows you to feed and build with a schedule and ratio that works for you. All you need to focus on is getting an active starter ready for the beginning of your bake.
I guess all this sums up as: once you've created your starter there's no doctrine here. A sourdough culture is very forgiving. You only need to build what you're going to bake with plus what you need to maintain it. Anything else is waste. Or pancakes. Surplus unfed stater makes excellent pancakes. And cake, especially chocolate. Also English muffins.
I keep a bit stiff rye starter in the fridge for up to 20 weeks with no maintenance over that time and take 5-10 g of it each week to make a loaf of bread. The 1;1;1 feeding schedule is very common and doesn't produce a lot of levain if you start with a small amount of starter - so, like most things, it is relative. I use a 3 stage levain build so the first one would be 10 g of starter, 10 g each of flour a water making 30 g total. 4 hours later I double the feeding to 20 g each of flour and water throwing nothing away and 4 hours after that i double it again to 40 g each of flour and water making 150 g of fully active levain at 100% hydration. This is an overall feeding ratio of 1:7:7 over 12 hours.
If I am using this build for starter storage in the fridge i would then toss 30 g of it and add 30 go of flour only to stiffen it up to 66% hydration ;et that rise 25% and stick it in the fridge for 16 to 20 weeks. i would use the 30 g to make a loaf of bread instead of tossing it of course.
Some people take 10 g of starter, add 70 g each of flour and water to it and let it sit out overnight to make their levain.. Some people do this but stir the mix every 4 hours if they are doing this in the daytime..
I think EK's method would make a huge amount of starter if you weren't baking 2-3 times a a week. But if you holding 75 g of starter on the counter and fed it 75 G of flour and water every 3 days and then baked with it using 150 g of starter to get back down to 75 g then it wold work fine with no discard.
He makes good bread and if you baked as often (and as much as he does) it should work. At 4 days using white flour the new starter would still be be very, very, weak and not ready to make bread. I can barely get there using whole grain rye and wheat.. A 3 day schedule of 4:parts starter to 1 part each flour and water keep on the counter seems like a starvation diet to me. i would rather see 1 part starter to :4:each of flour and water every 3 days if you are baking every 3 days
Happy SD baking
... in that you're happy with the results after day 4, however like dabrownman says there are 1000's of ways onward.
A lot will depend on how much fuss you want to make over your starter and how often you bake.
I bake 5-6 days a week and my starters live in the fridge. On the (now rare) occasion that I need under 400g of starter then I use it directly from the fridge (then top-up the jar and put it back in the fridge until next time), however I'm typically making 20-30-40 loaves some days now, so I need to bulk-up for that lot, and the way I do this is similar to others in that I take starter from the fridge, add to that flour + water and leave it at room temperature for 5-6 hours then use that in the dough. (remembering to top-up the jars which then go back in the fridge, although these days I often leave the jars out for an hour or 2 to get going again, especially when I've taken a lot out).
I bulk-up my starter using double the flour & water to starter, so 1:2:2 I think it's often written here. So if I need 500g of starter, then I take 100g from the fridge, add to that 200g flour and 200g water, mix, leave 5-6 hours then use. (and at the same time have topped up the starter with 50g flour and 50g water and its back in the fridge until next time - the next day or maybe 2-3 days time for my spelt starters)
What you need to do is to keep the starter going for a few days more to make sure it's "right and proper" before committing it to the fridge - at least that's what I'd do. Even then it will take a few weeks even a month or so before it's really stable and will make reliable bread time after time.
Good luck and happy bread making!
-Gordon
Unless your starter has a lot of alcohol in it (hooch), you should pick up a yeasty aroma from it. Yeasty, not "beery" as some say. Beer smells of hops, malt and alcohol as well as yeast.
Thank you all for sharing your thoughts and advice.
There wasn't any hooch on the starter that was smelling off. I must have been unclear but the starter wasn't left alone for 5 days. After baking with the Day 4 starter, I gave it some food on Day 5, feeding it in the 1:1:1 ratio. It then became sluggish and remained so on Day 6 and Day 7. The Day 7 version also smelled quite different (in an unpleasant way) from the version on Day 4 that I used to bake a boule with.
Yes, Eric Kayser adds baker's yeasts to his recipes but that's okay by me. For the past one year, I've been mostly baking Ken Forkish's breads with instant yeast and I'm very happy with the breads that autolyse, gentle stretch-and-folds and long fermentation at low temperatures can yield. I now feel ready for taking on sourdough breads and being a fan of the breads from Maison Kayser, I bought The Larousse Book of Bread. I found Eric Kayser's instructions for starting and using a sourdough starter to be straightforward enough and took the plunge. And that led me to where I was when I first started this post. I haven't given up on sourdough baking despite this initial setback because that first test bake was quite an eye-opener for me. The Day 4 sourdough starter (all rye flour and power-boosted with honey) imparted an indecipherably pleasant aroma and flavour to the bread and of course, there are the added health benefits of eating sourdough bread and the naturally longer shelf life. All these reasons make me quite determined to pursue sourdough baking.
For what it's worth, here's a couple of pictures of that first test bake with the Day 4 starter.
I'm glad to read your re-assurances that there is no one correct or best way to maintain a sourdough starter and also that it is a hardy creature. I guess it's a case of getting to know my starter and then developing a schedule that works for both the starter and me. I've read about discards being good for pancakes but chocolate cake is a new one for me. I sure would like to try that out!
That's a really nice looking loaf for a 4 day old starter! Good work!
Thanks for your encouragement, cranbo!
Hi HC,
Eric Kayser's liquid starter is refreshed 1:4, i.e. 100g liquid starter + 200g bread flour (type 55) + 200 g water 27C. Fermentation schedule differs, depending on the temperature and when you need it ready
6h @33C
12h @30C
16h @27C
5h @28C then 19 h @10C, or
1h @28C, then 3 days at 10C.
Your starter is pure rye flour, though. I have no idea how to refresh that one. Eric Kayser's starter, designed for his Fermentolevain machine, begins with rye flour and barley malt mixed with hot water (40C). But then with each refreshment only white bread flour and warm water is added to the previous step, in proportion 1:1:1, and you end up with liquid white wheat starter.
Hi Mariana,
The 4:1:1 ratio came from Eric Kayser's book, The Larousse Book of Bread. He explicitly gave the example of adding to 300g of starter 75g of flour and 75g of water in order to refresh the starter. And he specified that this be done at 3-day intervals.
I guess you must have attended his class before or worked with him before? The 1:2:2 ratio you outlined sounds more correct to me. I'll likely give this method a try for my second attempt.
Thanks!
feeding schedule for the starter to be sluggish on that starvation diet Try 50 g of starter and 200 g each of flour and water every 3 daysas a side test experiment. I think you will like the way the starter behaves much better..
Thank you, dabrownman. I will definitely try out the various ratios to see what works best for my starter.