August 30, 2015 - 12:54pm
Refreshing Reinhart's wild yeast for pizza dough
PR says to refresh a mother starter, which has stayed in the fridge longer than 3 days, with 4 cups of flour and 2 1/4 cups of water. Of this amount, he uses only 1 cup to make his sourdough pizza. I'm confused as to why I need to make such a big starter. Also, the recipe uses an inordinate amount of sugar or honey. I'm sure the sugar fulfills a purpose, keeping the dough more elastic, but can I cut down on the amount, or eliminate it altogether?
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You can certainly use less flour to refresh your starter and it won't make any difference. You can also certainly cut down on the amount of sugar or honey. I use one of his recipes for my pizza dough and it does not use a big amount of sugar. How much sugar are we talking about in relationship to the flour total? If you cut it down considerably it may just take a little longer to rise. I use his recipe where once I finish mixing I divide into balls, place in small plastic bags with a little olive oil and let retard over night in the refrigerator. Here is the link to the recipe I use: https://mookielovesbread.wordpress.com/2012/07/18/pastrami-pizza-and-pulled-pork-bbq-pizza/
I haven't seen his sourdough pizza dough, but I would say that if there is sugar called for then it must use a good amount of preferment and must be a long fermentation time (i.e. conditions where sugar can get used up to where there is not enough browning). I personally would think malt syrup would be better, but not something people tend to have on hand (I know I don't currently have any).
That said, there are many formulas out there that don't use sugar so I would think you should be able to get away with leaving it out (or cutting it down at least). I am sure his pizza quest blog has some sourdough pizzas to try:
https://www.fornobravo.com/pizzaquest/
Disclaimer: I have never done a sourdough pizza (yet), but do make sourdough bread and pizza dough (with no sugar)
I just opened up my copy of American Pie and looked at the recipe. As to the starter, I think you read it wrong. The 4 cup flour thing is if it has been in the refrigerator for 3 months, not 3 days. He recommends feeding whatever is left of the mother after 3 days (so every 4 days I guess) by doubling (or tripling or quadrupling) whatever is left in the container. He says if it can be left up to 3 months, but then you have to do the 4 cups of flour feeding to get a mother back.
The idea is that you build a mother (or sponge) and take the starter from that daily and feed what is left after 3 days. The amount you maintain is up to you. It is as simple as doubling (or tripling or quadrupling) what is left.
If you are going to store it for a long time then it needs to be fed a greater proportion. You can scale this down to fit your needs. So he uses 1.5 cups of starter and 4 cups of flour but you could do 3/4 cup starter and 2 cups of flour, etc. Of course if you use weights it is easier to scale beyond that.
Now this is just his way of handling things and there are many other ways to do it. I have never done it that way but it does seem to make things easier. The way you treat the starter will affect the taste. This is one of the reasons there are so many techniques that all seem to work. It really comes down to convenience and flavor profile. I know that "flavor rules" but sometimes maintaining a starter in such a way to get the exact flavor you want is too much work.
For the sugar ... he does mention that you can do a Nepoletana style of dough. This would mean no sugar. He is trying to make one that “. . . is more like the strong, elastic dough used at the Cheese Board, which must stand up to large amounts of cheese and other toppings.” (Excerpt From: Peter Reinhart. “American Pie.”)
So without the sugar it would probably be a thinner crust which was not what he is trying for in this particular recipe.
First of all, thanks to each of you for taking the time to answer my questions.
Maverick, I did read the part about leaving the starter in the fridge for three months, but wasn't quiet clear on what to do when the starter is not as old as three months, yet not cutting the 3-day-old mark. The two paragraphs back to back confused me a bit. So, thanks for clarifying the information.
I was also aware of the Neopolitan style, no sugar added version, but didn't want to risk it. After all, a lot of work and flour goes into the making of the sourdough pizza, which I'm working on for the last year or so.
What I don't like is the sugary aftertaste, the crumb, and the fact that it doesn't freeze so well. I made a couple of pizzas with dough balls that I'd previously frozen and the result was dense with no air pockets. The dough was super wet before freezing, and could only be managed after I did a stretch and fold. I repeated the same method with the defrosted balls and wondered if this is why they were so dense, because I knocked too much air out of them.
Could the dense crumb texture, save for the cornicione, be due to the use of milk in lieu of water?
I agree that the wording left a big gap between 3 days and 3 months. I would say that a week should be no problem. After that it really depends on your starter and there are other techniques that might work well if you don't bake often or don't want to feed twice a week.
I find it interesting that I was just reading one of his colleague's notes on motherdough and she stated that it shouldn't even be used for the first 5 days if you want some decent sourness.
This comes back to something I have long discussed and pondered. That is whether it is better to try to favor the yeast and the vigor of the starter, or take measures to get more LAB in the starter right from the get go to aide in flavor (as opposed to or in addition to dealing with it in the dough phase). The latter often takes less maintenance, but I have an irrational fear of losing the rise.
There are so many ways to deal with starters (most of which work) that I think you just have to choose one to start with and go from there.
You can also try David's take on SD which is excellent and uses no sugar: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/34452/pizza-bliss
It's a little extra work but the crust is as good as it gets. If you don't have any type 00 flour you can us AP flour but I highly recommend getting some. I buy Caputo 00 from Amazon.