August 29, 2015 - 11:02am
Starter not where it's supposed to be?
So day 3 I added white flour after two days of rye....I accidentally did day 2 feeding with rye not white per instructions oops....anyways after I added white flour it seemed to not grow or bubble like before...like at all..I decided to do day 4 feeding as it had slightly doubled (but again not like before) ..now I'm on day 4 and nothing...at 29 hours I put in a pinch of rye....at 40 hours I added the 1/2 cup flour 1/8 water without discarding...I guess I just wanted to build it up a bit....
what at happens now?...this is my second failed starter........would purchasing a starter be a fool proof way to get a starter going?...since its mature....
is is this starter save-able? lol...
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I haven't followed your process or progress, except for this post, but hang in there. If the proportions are good and the mix is in a safe and warm location, leave it be and check on it while the organisms multiply and begin to sort themselves out.
Keep the faith!
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/43447/my-starter-supposed-look-pics-attached
I take it this is the same starter...
Hang in there. Your starter is behaving textbook style with no action on day 4. Just let it sit and ferment between 75°F and 80°F (I prefer 76°F) A spoon or two of water on top to keep it from drying out or a light cover with rubber band to keep the bugs out is all it needs.
".this is my second failed starter.." Nope, not yet. It takes a little while and sometimes better not to watch it all the time. If it makes you feel better you can stir it but it's a waiting game. Adding more flour only raises the pH when the whole process needs to drop in pH to get the right supportive bacteria growing. When in doubt... just leave it alone. :)
Ok, I did already add some more flour and water without removing half....sorry lol...is that ok? If it is ill just take it as a feeding and wait 24 hours to feed it again.....is that ok or did my overzealous feeding hurt it, also how long could it be stuck in day 4?...my house is 72-77 degrees usually.
I did already add some more flour and water without removing half....sorry lol...is that ok?
It will be just fine. Let it ferment. It will gradually get thinner and stronger yeast smelling as it ferments. Temp seems ok.
I kind of just fixed it was so little starter, feeding without removing wouldn't hurt...? :/
And I'm sorry...do u mean at day 4 just let it sit without feeding it?....until it doubles....for day 5.....yes that's the same recipe.....sorry so many questions!! :)
we have all been there when we started making sourdough starters and we understand. Usually just when we give up and think it's failed, we are rewarded with a bubbly active starter. Just be patient. you will start to see bubbles start to form on the sides when looking through the container and they will gradually get larger.
If the starter is very thick, more like a stiff dough or clay, I would suggest working in a little bit more water one spoon at a time until the mixture is more like toothpaste or a very soft dough.
Mini
Sorry I think I got.ur replylate....ok...I will.leave it.alone...before.I added it.seemed.like.it.was getting.thinner a few bubbles but.no.rise.....so, it seems.rise was on.the horizon lol...... So I.kinda just restarted the day 4 clock it seems.......how.long should I wait before thinking.it wont rise, and giving.it.no.food?....the recipe says it.may takemore than 24 hrs but, how long.could.it take? Just curious....I feel like.not.giving.it.flour.will.kill.it.but.its fermenting.as u said..........aince.I.did the extra addition will my.end.still be 100% hydration still?...
Also.thr consistency is.like.sticky.pancake batter...fyi
is very thin at 100% hydration. It is very good for fermentation but because it is so thin, it often doesn't rise much or less that what you might expect. So a slightly thicker mixture may rise more because it can trap the gas and not release it quickly on the surface.
Rising is only one indication of fermentation, formation of gas bubbles is important, another is aroma, another is slight change in colour (most often slightly darker) and taste will also change from wet flour to something more cheesy and eventually yeasty or even sour.
If you only have a small amount of growing culture, daily adding a Tablespoon of flour with enough water to get it wet is just fine. Even if the hydration is not exactly 100% that will not make too much difference. There is no need to discard until your culture amount is over say half a cup at this stage of the process. Then it would be frugal to reduce it to keep it small.
I usually feed every day a little bit without discarding until the starter culture smells closer to beer, then wait a day without feeding (this is at your temperature) and then discard and give a good feed for a good reaction. Save the discard for back up. You can throw it away later if you don't need it. Then I use the fed starter when it peaks. Save a little to feed to continue the starter and weigh the rest for bread dough.
if you can keep the fermenting goop 75°F or slightly above, it will shave a week off the waiting. 72°F takes about 10days to two weeks to be ready enough to raise dough. One easy way to make a warm spot is to boil a mug of water in the microwave, shove it to the back and without turning on the oven, park the culture inside for the warmth. Throw a towel over the oven to insulate it more.
Im using white flour though?... Also , so I.should still.feed it.every 24 ? Before.youentioned.to.hust.let.it sit for.ph...sorry.imconfised.on.that.now
And ur.saying.I may not even.see.rise? If I.dont.see.rise.but.I.see.bubblesand smell I can.go ahead with last feeding?
A recipe for creating a starter is the over thinking of the process. I've been reading through your comments and believe me it doesn't matter what flour you use and on what day. A starter can be made with rye and/or bread flour. By all means use rye for the whole process or bread flour if you wish. So do not worry about this. Secondly, a starter has to be nurtured and while it is maturing at this stage it is dictating to you when it needs a feed. Don't make the mistake of over feeding to hurry things along. When a starter is viable and mature you dictate to your starter and make it work for you. Till then sit back, don't worry and only feed when necessary.
To create a starter you need flour + water + time. That is it!
So you have fed your starter. Now wait! Don't feed again till you see signs of life. When you see signs of life then it means there is something to be fed so feed again. It might take a day or two or three but have patience. Keep this up and youll notice your starter becoming more predictable. When it rises every time it is fed and its predicable then it is ready. So follow this...
1. Don't feed again till it shows signs of life
2. When you feed it then discard 2/3rds and top it up with 1/3rd flour + 1/3rd water
3. Only feed when it shows signs of life
4. When predictable and strong it is ready
5. Type of flour is not an issue but whole rye works very well
ok, sounds good...im going to do the microwave trick in a few days if I see no signs of life, but my place is pretty warm as mentioned so I think the temp is ok
Im going to stick with the measurements in the recipe...1/4flour 1/8 water --for now ...so that I can...hopefully end in 100% hydration....I assume if I keep with that measurement it should, but Im doing a few more days of feeding like this---so will it still end in 100% hydration?
Thanks for the fyi on wait days-I was thinking if its been a few days it may just be dead....by signs of life i assume you mean bubbles, possible rise, and yeasty smell....but the rise is give or take, so even if I see it bubbling its good to be fed and "alive"? And what constitutes consistent?...rising after feeding within 4-6hrs? or?
Lots of questions still, hoping someone can address the ones in this comment---sorry again, and thank you SO much!
100% hydration is same weight flour to water. And remember that 1 gram water = 1 ml.
In the USA cups are a standard measurement but in the UK we go by weight. Most often in Grams. When I first started off I tried to follow by volume but messed everything up. I abandoned that and instead weighed everything. I find it easier but that's just my personal experience. If volume works for you then by all means.
So your question on hydration is wasted on me if we aren't talking in Grams. Sorry about that.
Yes, by signs of life I means bubbles. If its producing bubbles then there are yeasts present and active. So they can be fed. If not producing bubbles and there are no signs of life then what are you feeding? If all has gone quiet it means the yeasts aren't active then if you discard and refresh it would be taking a step backwards.
The life of a starter... You feed it, it bubbles up, peaks then falls. At this stage it needs more food. So feed! If it peaks and falls overnight, for example, then look for starter clinging to the sides for signs. But it should still be bubbly for some time.
Now when I say predictable I mean it should come to life when fed and its not a waiting game. i.e yeasts are active and healthy and have no trouble responding. When it does this a few times and gets quicker between feeds then its nice and strong. You'll see when this happens.
Right now you're just cultivating the yeasts and good bacteria. The more you feed it and when viable the more you use it in your baking the better you'll understand. You learn by practising and following recipes. When I first started it was so overwhelming and the only way to learn is to do. Now I don't give it too much thought as I 'know' my starter. Now, everyone's starter is unique so you'll have to get to know yours! Till then follow the feeding when necessary rule and hopefully it'll be ready soon. Expect 1-2 weeks before its ready depending on your starter.
IT'S A GAME OF PATIENCE!
The only question is... Who has more patience?
be very lively on day 2-3 for all the wrong reasons - the bad wee beasties are in control of the culture but as the pH of the culture goes down the good wee beasties who like an environment that is more acidic will start to take over, On day 4-5 the culture can look dead like yours.
Np worries the good wee beasties are not very strong and won't ever be as vigorous as the bad ones in the beginning. By day 6 the culture should start to be more active . The key is to feed the culture often enough to have plenty of food around but not dilute the acid environment too much - By day 10 you should have a nice starter.ready to rise it first loaf of bread,
Hello all,
My starter was bubbly yesterday but I thought I would see if it would rise...and left it until today-this morning being 48 hours...it didnt but it smelled of acetone........I googled this and figured perhaps it was hungry? I disposed of half, or about half...and added 1/4cup flour, 1/8 water-as the most recent measurements dictated....I actually have no idea where my hydration is though because I only eyed discarding half, and after feeding it, I could definitely obviously tell it was way too dry, not like it was before...or picture of starters I see on researching google etc......so I ended up adding a bit more water, just a little at a time, 3x.......eyeing again....The original receipe said to let it sit/and wait to double etc..but I dont think it was going to double even without me messing with it...I think that by me stopping feeding it-made it smell like nail polish? I think the resolution is for me to throw away half and feed --every 24 hrs until its reliable...is that right? Just letting it sit seems to have an adverse affect?
This is the consistency it looks like NOW, as in after feeding.... the link below, its a bing image....without bubbles, because I just stirred and fed...thoughts?
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=sourdough+starter&view=detailv2&&id=A7141B31C3267ADE867AE176B159A713D0BD95C5&selectedIndex=74&ccid=h%2fElyktL&simi...
UPDATE-Its been 3 hours and its ALMOST doubled............
Im still concerned about the strong acetone that it was smelling like... and hydration.........so to cure both of those, in my mind Im thinking about ...keeping it on the counter and measuring out 2 or 4 ounces (not sure which yet?)..and feeding it with the same amount water/flour to feed.......and do that a few times every...12 hours? or would 24 be better?
Assuming all works well....in a few days...when Im ready to bake and in order to bulk up a starter to begin baking with it, do I feed it immediately after it doubles, and continue to feed it until it has the amount I want? So if it doubles in 6 hours, feed it at 6 hours, and wait to double again and feed, double, feed---until it has the amount I want-basically i dont have to wait 12-24 when bulking, right?
Thanks again all..
doubling. Let the starter peak and then feed. Or stick to a recipe that specifically says how high the starter should rise.
Anyway. ...in a few days? You will have enough starter for a recipe much sooner. Have you got your recipe handy? You can put it together with the next peak in rising.
OK because...it seems definitely active...is the strong acetone normal?
I happen to be home right now and its doubled/bubbles in 4 hours....so Im going to measure out number starter and feed with equal number water and flour, wait for it to bubble/peak/double and do that again.....untli the acetone kinda goes away....and I think I read if my hydration is slightly off, if I do a few feeds it should level out? So thats the theory Im working with for that?......
And then build up...from what I understand from your comment, I SHOULD NOT wait the full 12/24 to feed if building up for baking...
Then when ready.....refrigerate...and feed once a week to maintain/etc etc
This ones a just curious comment/question: For those that maintian on the shelf-I believe I read they feed once a day if you end up not refrigerating, and keep on shelf-I only bake once a week so I dont want to do this but...if in the future I did, does the starter peak and go down but you still wait until that once a day feeding time regardless (since you arent buliding up or using or etc)-is that right?
And now I'm gonna give you more :)
Just kidding. No more technicalities and numbers to confuse you. Just ideas and follow your instincts.
1. Your starter is young. The more it matures the better it gets.
2. Giving bigger feeds will make your starter healthier and eventually the smell will get more pleasant.
3. All this talk of doubling, catching it at its peak and just falling for baking is great for someone who is just starting and needs definite advice and measurements. Eventually you'll realise that with sourdough there are no definite and many different ways. The only way you'll learn this is to use it, get to know your starter and how it behaves. You'll 'bend' the rules when you are more used to it. But as with anything there is less flexibility while learning.
4. Carry on feeding your starter! When it is strong then get a nice simple recipe and have a go! Follow it to the letter and see what happens. Sounds as if its doing well and you should be ready soon.
5. Here is where I tell you my own schedule (but not the only way to keep a starter) and perhaps you'll like the idea... I keep a relatively small amount at any one time. I'll feed it, allow it to bubble up by a half and then store it in the fridge. I only build about 150g or so. Then when I wish to bake I'll take a little off and build to the correct amount in the recipe. Every two weeks or so the starter in the fridge will run low. So I'll top it up by feeding it, allowing it to bubble up by half and then returning it to the fridge and so the process starts again.
6. My starter is whole rye and it keeps very well this way. Whole rye is great for starters and keeps well. It never makes hooch or hardlky any. Other flours are less hardy and may need more frequent feedings. I would slowly work my way up to longer time between feeds. So when your starter is strong enough to store perhaps first do weekly feedings come what may then in a month you can do fortnightly depending on how often you bake. You'll get the feel of it and if it looks as if it needs some TLC every now and again then by all means.
about a month before refrigerating it. Hopefully the acetone smell will be replaced by a beery yeasty one very soon. Do like Mini OVen says. Once your starter has peaked and started to fall back then toss some and feed it,. It should peak and fall back every 12 hours or so,
Happy SD baking - I would start with the basic 1,2,3 SD recipe 1 part starter, 2 parts water and 3 parts flour with 2% of the flour weight in salt. It is a great bread and a fine place to start.
Happy baking
I am curious about the 1-2-3 recommendation. This looks to be a 100% hydration starter being built. So that puts the total dough hydration for 1-2-3 at 71.4%. Personally I love the formula and using that hydration yields some great dough. As such, I am not saying this is an incorrect recommendation. I am just wondering about this as a first formula to use in terms of dough management. I guess if enough bench flour was used then this might make sense.
Now if you are using a lower hydration starter that would make a big difference. I mean a 66.7% starter would end up with a 66.7% final dough hydration which is very manageable. It also increases the pre-ferment flour percentage up a couple % which might be a good thing (especially with a new starter).
Of course, the 1-2-3 with some of the flour being rye (or whole wheat) would be a different story. But the simplicity of the formula is lost at that point even if the flavor might be even better.
Okay, now I am in the mood to make some of this sometime this week :)
I have made starter a few different times and know the strong acetone smell of which you speak. Just keep feeding and it will eventually subside. It is common to experience that. I think you are getting some good advice above. I just wanted to reassure you that the acetone smell is nothing to worry about.