New and have SO MANY questions...Ill try to organize them
Hello,
My husband and I have been on a health kick. One thing he loves is homemade bread and I cant believe I found this forum, SO excited! I have a million questions because Ill try my first starter tomorrow, please help me answer my questions as Ive been googling the past week and Im google'd out!
1. Ive read a few places that sourdough bread (homemade) is very good for you, for multiple reasons, but does anyone have any resources that would be interesting to read on factual/scientific writing that explains this a bit better than google?
2. We honestly dont eat bread THAT much (but love it, its our downfall)....so Im not sure if I want to keep a starter alive long term or not.....If I create a starter and bake bread with it after a week (or so/basically when ready), using all of it and not leaving any to keep ----will the bread still be "sour"...we LOVE sourdough.. but Im afraid if I just use it as I want and dont keep one "alive" it wont really be that sour?...is there merit in this assumption Im making or?
3. IMPORTANT ...my husband also loves the sweet whole wheat bread...Ive been trying to figure out if I can make a "starter" homemade with just whole wheat flour and water...instead of using commercial store bought yeast?...If I do that........will it just be sourdough whole wheat =/ ?....I really want to use starters for other types of breads but Im just confused with google because the only thing that ends up popping up is "whole wheat sourdough starter". If we want this type of bread or...french bread....or etc...do we HAVE to use a commercial yeast so its not sour tasting? And if there is a way to create a starter (not commercial) that wont make the bread "sourdough" then how...? Or?
4. Hydration...From what I get 166% hydration starter will be more sour than say 60%-first, is that right? And second...if I am starting off with a 100% hydrated starter how do I get to 166% and is that sustainable-as mentioned we really like the sourness (all the recipes I see are 100% so if someone has one for different % that is easy please let me know)
5. Lastly, on keeping a starter alive. As I mentioned we dont bake bread constantly...but definitely LOVE it...Im not sure if its worth keeping a starter alive for us but this will help me decide what to do ---From what I understand I can keep a starter alive forever in the fridge....as long as I discard some and add in flour/water once a week.....Is that right---that I can basically keep it..for years...? Again, it may be a waste for us now because its just us two but once we have kids I think I would love to keep a starter for a long time so I want to make sure Im understanding right...
6. I lied...last one.......pineapple juice? I keep hearing about this but not exactly sure what this does or benefits, can someone point me in the direction to answer this? Is it necessary? And also all Ive found is sweetened pineapple juice but Ive only looked at one store-unsweetened, most recipes I see are calling for this, should be in grocery correct?
Thank you, sorry so many questions
Everything I say below is based on my own experience, and a bit of dabbling in the science, and some of my own scientific-like experimentation with varying temperature and ingredient ratios. Others on here have gone farther with these things than I have.
I define "beginner" as someone who hasn't yet achieved predictable, acceptable loaves of bread using only sourdough starter as leavening (I would say that sour tasting bread should not be a goal for a beginner).
HEALTH BENEFITS OF SOURDOUGH
The primary claims are 1) the nutrients in sourdough bread are accessible, but are not in normal yeast bread, 2) sourdough is better for the gluten intolerant, 3) the body has far less inflammatory response to sourdough than to normal white or wheat bread, and 4) sourdough bread resists molding (I've noticed this in my own, where I keep it out at room temperature for several days with no sign of green mold. I wouldn't expect a "probiotic" argument to make much sense, because a 500degree oven is going to kill every organism in the dough, good or bad. The bread itself is pretty much dead. I would post my favorite link, if I could find it. Otherwise, I suggest you Google "sourdough health benefits interview".
AGE OF STARTER AND SOURNESS
I believe sourness comes more from the temperature during fermentation of the bread than from the age of your starter. Other factors also matter, from what I've read, but the bottom line is you have to actually try to get the bread to be sour.
WHOLE WHEAT VARIANTS OF SOURDOUGH BREAD
It's possible to make whole wheat bread that doesn't require additional yeast beyond what is in the starter. I've never done it. 10% of the flour in my recipe is rye flour. My bread doesn't taste especially sour. I've read that whole wheat flour itself encourages sourness. Also keep in mind that sourness isn't automatic in bread made with sourdough starter. "Sourdough" is the name used for naturally leavened bread that may or may not be sour.
WHEAT VS RYE VS OTHER FLOURS IN THE STARTER
I recommend using rye to establish the starter. After that you can use whatever flour you want to maintain the starter. One of the sources I used when getting started was pretty opposed to using anything other than white wheat flour, so that you aren't continually introducing new yeast and bacteria strains to your starter. The additional point was made that the flour in the starter is a small enough percentage of the total in the dough that I really isn't worth it to mess around with whole grain flours for starter maintenance.
LONG TERM STARTER MANAGEMENT
Keeping it in the fridge and feeding it once a week will make it more manageable. I feed mine in the morning and evening, and sometimes miss a feeding or two. The starter can also be used for pancakes and waffles, so you don't necessarily have to waste it.
PINEAPPLE JUICE
I believe the benefits of pineapple juice are in the early days of a brand new starter that is being started from scratch. The acidity of the juice keeps undesirable organisms at bay until the desirable ones populate the starter and can keep the others out on their own. It doesn't accelerate the process, as far as I know. It doesn't affect the flavor, to my knowledge. It shouldn't be used with a mature starter. I've started two starters without it, so I would argue that it isn't necessary.
> HEALTH BENEFITS OF SOURDOUGH
I don't disagree with what you say but would like to point out that the advantages you list are shared by all long fermentation breads, not just sourdough. It's the time the enzymes get to break down the flour that makes the difference, not where the yeast comes from.
I would also like to point out that sourdough isn't "better for the gluten intolerant" as it still contains gluten. It will, however, be more digestible than the bread many people who believe they have a gluten intolerance have been used to eating. For the vast majority of them, it's not the gluten which causes the problem, it's the doughy, undeveloped rubbish being called 'bread' produced by the Chorleywood process.
Thanks for the corrections. I've had a harder time getting the "facts" of sourdough right than with other things I've been interested in. It seems like there are as many techniques as there are bakers, and like with every other kind of food, the health claims also vary widely. This forum has been a great resource for me.
Observations suggest to me that sourdough can become as much a belief system as a method of making delicious bread. ;-)
disagree. SD whole grains really do spread out the glucose spike over a linger time and anyone who tests their blood can confirm that.
Sorry, I don't understand. I can't see anything in your message which relates to anything I've posted. What would diabetics disagree with?
It is just science, You need scientific proof, not beliefs when you have this disease. Lower blood sugar spikes with SD bread, either white or whole grain SD, are a scientific fact proven over and over again with sprouted grain SD having the lowest blood sugar spike of all - and why I make sprouted SD bread. Yeast breads, either white or whole wheat, show a similar much higher blood sugar spike in diabetics. Anyone who tests their blood can tell you.the difference in yeast and SD breads. It is the SD and sprouting that makes the difference, not the wholeness of the grain for diabetics. Whole grains have other health benefits too, like fiber, added minerals and many other health benefits.
It isn't a belief - it is a fact.
Here is one of many examples
http://www.sourdough.co.uk/sourdough-and-blood-sugar-response-and-diabetes/
Happy baking
Firstly, the health benefits I was commenting on didn't mention diabetics or blood sugar levels.
Secondly, I said "Observations suggest to me that sourdough can become as much a belief system as a method of making delicious bread". Nothing you've said contradicts those observations and there's nothing there for diabetics, or anyone else, to disagree with. They're my observations and my impression is only relevant in the case of those people who do appear, to me, although not necessarily to anyone else as it's just a personal impression, to have adopted SD as a belief system. Anyone for whom it isn't a belief system, or, at least, anyone who doesn't give me the impression that they've adopted SD as a belief system, is automatically excluded from my statement.
Lastly, there's a 'tongue-in-cheek' smiley after the sentence, indicating that the comment was made in a manner intended to be taken lightly. As a humorous statement. Not to be assumed to have been uttered in any seriousness.
I hope that clears things up.
then say
This statement is scientifically proven to be false. The reason is simple enough. If long fermentation is the key to these health benefits then any commercial yeast added to any mix in any amount will make things happen faster than they would for the same bread made with sourdough. Sourdough yeast is weak and slow so things happen much slower than commercial yeast which is strong and fast - even when just a tiny bit is used in a preferment. Bread made with commercial yeast just can't be made slow enough to wring out all the health benefits - when compared to SD there is no long fermenting commercial yeast bread. Everything is relative and commercial yeast is light speed when the yeast in SD is a tortoise. This also discounts anything that the LAB in SD is bringing to the party from a health benefits point of view as well
Study after study says that commercial yeast bread is far inferior to SD breads in every category when it comes to health benefits but does in the boring &,bland tasting as well as the less sour categories no matter howlong it ferments.:-). The humorous idea that the poster has a belief system rather tha scientific facts to rely on when it comes to the health benefits of SD bread is false and the idea that commercial yeast breads that are supposedly long fermented have the same ones is also false. Science is what takes beliefs in myths from science fiction to science facts. In order to believe in what you do would require faith in myth and that science doesn't exist.
It is akin to saying that white bread has the same health benefits as whole grain bread.
Stiill, as a libertarian in most things, i could care less what myths people believe in but, I will point them out so they don't spread to the unwary and easily confused - now that is a joke!
No worries and happy baking.
> ...i could care less...
So you do care what myths people believe in, then. Any in particular that get your goat?
> This statement is scientifically proven to be false.
Which one? There are two statements there. Do you mean: "...the advantages you list are shared by all long fermentation breads, not just sourdough." or "It's the time the enzymes get to break down the flour that makes the difference, not where the yeast comes from."? Whichever you mean, I'd be interested to see the scientific refutation you mention. I'd be especially interested if it's the second point, as I've never even heard it mooted that the various types of yeast which develop in a sourdough culture can bring health benefits which bakers' yeast can't, never mind that anyone has proved it through research. It had never even occurred to me that health benefits are linked to the yeast strain, rather than the process. If there are any differences, I'd think they'd be more likely to be the result of bacterial development, rather than the different yeast. Would you post a link to any relevant scientific papers, please?
And what is your following statement meant to mean. I can't make any sense out of it or see how it relates to the discussion. You say: "If long fermentation is the key to these health benefits then any commercial yeast added to any mix in any amount will make things happen faster than they would for the same bread made with sourdough." You seem to be suggesting that a single cell of bakers' yeast added to any amount of dough would work faster on the dough than if it were leavened by any amount of sourdough, but only if long fermentation is the key to these health benefits. It's a strange enough claim before we get to the condition but it then becomes bizarre. Would you elucidate, please?
> Study after study says that commercial yeast bread is far inferior to SD breads in every category when it comes to health benefits but does in the boring &,bland tasting as well as the less sour categories no matter howlong it ferments.:-).
Again, I can't make head nor tail of this, I'm afraid. The sentence falls apart from the point where you use the word 'but'. What do you mean?
> The humorous idea that the poster has a belief system rather tha scientific facts to rely on when it comes to the health benefits of SD bread is false...
Then it's a good thing no one has made that suggestion - which, thinking about it, is the second time I've used that phrase in response to one of your non sequitors. I think it might be a good idea if you go back and read the thread very carefully because it seems to me that you're extremely confused as to who's said what and in what context. I'm the only person who's mentioned a belief system and I didn't use it in reference to any particular poster, which is what you seem to think.
> It is akin to saying that white bread has the same health benefits as whole grain bread.
How so? I can't see the similarity? Please explain.
and will leave it at that. but I am sorry you can't comprehend it but don't;give up..... it isn't that difficult.
I can't comprehend what you write as it is as confused as you appear to be about the roles of enzymatic action and yeast in the bread making process. It's not the long exposure to yeast, of any sort, which makes wheat flour digestible and nutritious, it's the action of the enzymes already present in the flour in a process which begins when the flour gets wet, a process known as autolysis. No doubt there are additional benefits to be gained from the bacilli which develop in a starter culture but they were not the subject of the exchange to which you commented.
But it turns out that you're completely unable to support your contentions, then? No references to all those studies you apparently base your comments on? It would be nice if you stopped making such unsupported claims, as all they serve to do is confuse, especially when you make them in such a confused manner and in response to a request for information by someone just starting out to make their own bread.
And the phrase you were looking for is: "I couldn't care less". If you could care less then there must be a degree of caring involved, which I'm sure is not what you meant.
a member of the 'I couldn't Care Less Society'. Our members really do care about things, just not about what others think and say when they can't comprehend what was said. You seem confused so i will try again. You started off well enough when you said
And a wheel started coming off your cart when you added
Now you seem to think the enzymes that break down the starch in flour starting with the autolyse when the dough flour and water only are mixed........is somehow fermentation.
Fermentation is a metabolic process that converts sugars to acids, gases or alcohol. It occurs when yeast or LAB metabolize sugar. It takes a living microbe to accomplish fermentation and like you said, it takes a long fermentation process to produce the health benefits the OP listed just as you said.
Enzymnes are chemical catalysts. Enzymes accelerate chemical reactions. In the case of bread starch is the substrate and enzymes accelerate the chemical reaction that converts them into sugars - the products. Enzymes in flour are great at providing nutritional benefits for LAB and yeast but not so much for humans. We have our own unique ones in our saliva and stomach.
Humans benefit nutritionally from the long fermentation process where LAB and yeast do their thing. Not all LAB and yeast are the same though when it comes to the kind of long fermentation most beneficial to humans when it comes to bread. Some LAB and yeast are very slow to do their thing and, like you said, the long fermentation process is where the benefits lie
Some yeast found in SD can produce twice the CO2 of others - a bad thing since it is slow we are after not faster proofs, Some LAB found in SD can produce more CO2 than then the yeast found in the culture can - also a bad thing for the same reason. The LAB and yeast found in combination in SD cultures vary widely and each delivers a different set of nutritional and other health benefits to humans.
Commercial yeast is the fastest of the fast and as a result isn't at all a slow fermentation process when compared to sourdough and as a result commercial yeast breads are far inferior to SD ones when it comes to health benefits for 2 reasons, The slow fermenting LAB in the mix supply their own health benefits for humans and the slow fermenting yeast are way better at doing the same thing for humans than fast acting commercial yeast bread ever could.
The only things that commercial yeast breads have in their favor are speed, low cost and no sour taste that many prefer. Now I could do your research for you and produce all kinds of science that confirms this but since it is so easy to do, I feel confident that you can ferret it out all on your own - which you will appreciate more I assure you.
So, No worries and
Happy researching
.
"Now you seem to think the enzymes that break down the starch in flour starting with the autolyse when the dough flour and water only are mixed........is somehow fermentation."
I really think you should go back and read what I've written, rather than what you think I've written. At no time have I said anything about enzymatic action and fermentation being the same thing. Neither did I mention anything 'starting with the autolyse', although autolysis of flour would require the flour to be hydrated, so that is probably when autolysis begins. Not knowing what level of hydration is required to start autolysis I can't say and, of course, autolysis doesn't require what you're referring to as an autolyse to start. Any wetting of the flour will do.
Read this definition of autolysis to avoid becoming even more confused than you already are: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/autolysis
Do you think that the enzymes stand aside while the fermentation is taking place? During long fermentation cycles enzymatic action breaks down the starch in the flour and turns flour into a digestible form. The kind of yeast which is involved in the fermentation process makes no difference to the enzymes.
"Enzymes in flour are great at providing nutritional benefits for LAB and yeast but not so much for humans."
On the contrary. Without them, wheat flour is pretty much indigestible to humans and people who eat bread made by a process which doesn't give the enzymes time to work often believe they have a gluten intolerance, when the vast majority don't. They just can't assimilate raw wheat flour because we don't have the bacteria or enzymes in our gut to do the job. The enzymes, not the yeast, are what allow many people who thought they were gluten intollerant to enjoy bread again. Which is one of the health benefits I was commenting on when you became confused as to what we were talking about.
"Humans benefit nutritionally from the long fermentation process where LAB and yeast do their thing"
They certainly do and the source of the yeast is immaterial. It's the time, the 'long' part, that makes the difference in the cases which were under discussion, not the yeast.
"Commercial yeast is the fastest of the fast and as a result isn't at all a slow fermentation process..."
This is the fallacy which is at the root of your inability to grasp the facts. You can make a fermentation process last as long or, to a certain degree, as short a time as like by several means. The two most effective are: by controlling the quantity of yeast in the dough; and by controlling the temperature at which fermentation takes place. By introducing a tiny amount of bakers' yeast you could make any fermentation last as long as a sourdough fermentation and controlling the temperature of the fermentation would allow the time to be spun out even longer, should the whim take you. The yeasts in a sourdough culture do not have a monopoly on long fermentation. And because it's unnecessary to have fermentation and enzymatic action happening at the same time for the complete bread making process, you could even let the enzymes have the flour all to themselves for some of the time, adding the yeast at any time later in the process. There are many different ways to let time work on the dough. A sourdough culture is just one tool in the toolbox. It's not the holy grail.
"Now I could do your research for you and produce all kinds of science that confirms this but..."
It's your assertion that my [still unidentified] statement "...is scientifically proven to be false." so the onus is on you to produce the proof to support your contention. You've failed to clarify any of those garbled and meaningless sentences in your posts, of which there are many. You've made unsubstantiated claims while adopting a stance I've heard described as 'loud, confident and wrong' to discredit my posts. I've already spent far too much time responding to your ill-mannered blathering, so I suggest you either post some links to the reports produced by "study after study", which you rely on so heavily for your utterly pointless (because it's not pertinent to the discussion you blundered into, anyway) argument, or withdraw your statements and apologise for muddying the water while everyone else has been trying to clarify it for the OP. At the very least, acknowledge that you're in a hole and stop digging. I know you won't do any of those, of course, but whatever blustering attempt at face-saving you decide on, I'm not wasting any more time on you.
think that you would know that humans have enzymes that break down all kinds of substrates into products the human body can metabolize. You claim that the flour would be indigestible for humans without the enzymes in flour. This is completely and totally false too.
Us humans have plenty of enzymes classified by their target substrates to perform this work Healthy people have no problem digesting and making use of all kinds of carbohydrates, starches, proteins, fats and even acids, minerals and vitamins. Way more enzymes than any flour ever thought about having. Here are some of them
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digestive_enzyme
Humans can eat raw grains even without adding any water and digest them just fine and extract their nutrients without any enzymes being activated in the grain. Same with just about any food humans eat even when raw. from meat, fish, plants, veggies anything we would call food.
Like I said, the enzymes in flour don't do us much good because we already have them well covered with our own digestive enzymes and they are deactivated in the heat of baking. But yeast and LAB don't have these digestive enzymes being the simple forms of life they are. ....so they need to have them supplies by something else, in this case the grain itself, so that they will have the starch broken down for them into a food they can metabolize........ and produce fermentation. it is all in the fermentation for both LAB and yeast,
I know you think that all LAB and yeast are the same and do the same thing but they aren't and don't. But the added benefits of SD bread over yeast bread, no matter how much yeast is used are many. The reason why commercial yeast bread don't supply the same benefits, and as plentifully as sourdough, is because commercial yeast works too fast and doesn't have the added component that the slow fermentation process of the LAB component in SD. i don't know why saying this one more time to you will change your mind this time, but like i said I couldn't care less what you think.
Run a search on the health benefits of white yeast breads and. then run one on SD breads. Perhaps you will believe someone else but i doubt it
Happy baking .
It's obviously important to each of you, given the amount of back and forth, but it really doesn't address the OP's questions. I know neither of you intended to threadjack but that's what this is turning into.
Enjoy your conversation!
Thanks,
Paul
Bravo, Jon.
Your enthusiasm and questioning are great! The answers to all your questions are in this blog, but they would probably take a small book to compile. I'll take a little nibble of that great loaf of questions: Let me point you to what, I think, will clarify several question about sourdough. In the upper right corner of the page, type "The Pineapple Juice Solution" (without quotes). That should lead you to two major posts by Debra Wink, a microbiologist who beautifully lays out a method for making your own starter. While describing the method, Debra also goes in to a comprehensible amount of detail about what makes sourdough work.
You can also purchase ready-made starter from various sources like King Arthur Flour, but you might gain more from nursing your "baby" to life. At the heart, sourdough starter is basically wild yeast from the air or from flour or even fruit, that is grown into a leavening that has desirable properties for artisan breads. You will learn how to tweak your own starter to have milder or stronger character as you wish. Commercial yeast is a uniform strain that is cultured to have highly consistent rising speeds and properties needed for more commercial-type loaves.
I hope this gives you a little start down the path to your goal. Perhaps, before too long, you will even give a name to your personal starter....quite a few of us do ;-) Best of luck.
GregS
I've been baking about a year but consider myself a newby because of my limited knowledge. I find the responses by jcope & Greg S to be very helpful. I first started by watching the videos on Breadtopia which I think is excellent for beginners. My first loaf was his spelt recipe. Not bad for me - not quite a frisbee but not much rise. Tasted really good. That's one thing about my failures. They are not 100% failures. http://breadtopia.com/spelt-bread-recipe/
Samin 1987 mentioned a 166% hydration and I was looking for a response to that. It seems pretty high to me.
making a starter for the first time
They use white flour,, Don't.......use whole wheat or whole rye, Much more LAB and yeast in whole grain flour and things will happen much faster and more reliably by far.
They keep it too thin. Keep it at 100% hydration by weight - half liquid and half whole flour - by weight ( I said it twice so you don't use cups), This will be thick enough to hold in the bubbles ans you can see it rise.
Keep it warm....at 78 F. Starters love warmth,
Use some OJ or pineapple juice the first couple of days to keep the bad LAB and yeast in check. You want the ones that love to live in the acid environment of a SD culture and they won't really start to take over the mix till day 4 or 5.
Be patient. The mix might look like it is dead after day 3 but it isn't.
Don't over feed it. If it isn't active with bubbles and rising it doesn't need to be fed. Over feeding slows things down and dilutes the mix and raises then pH which isn't productive unless the mix is active,
You won't have an established starter for a week but it will take a month to mature.
Have fun - starters are easy enough for most folks but if you run into problems this forum will help you sort them out,
Tomorrow is day one! Yeah! Nothing like a great SD brad for all kinds of reasons - especially health ones.
Debra Wink's Pineapple juice method is one to go with using a whole flour and WW is easy to find and cheap.,
It took me a long time to get my starter going but finally I was sucessful, with the help from this forum. About a year ago I made my first sourdough loaf, now I am hooked. Maintaining it is absolutely no trouble. I maintain it as per dabrownman's No Muss No Fuss - brilliant and recently was away for 2 months so it was left in the fridge for about 10 weeks untouched. It bounced back without any trouble at all.
Happy baking and enjoy the journey. we look forward to seeing some photos.
Leslie
Mine was 15 weeks stored on Friday - shooting for 20 weeks this time.
Happy Baking
When I started baking natural levian bread, I was only making one a week - after trying a few different regimes to maintain my starter, I settled on keeping a jar in the fridge with about 300g in it, taking about 200g directly from that jar to make up the loaf, immediately topping up the jar (100g flour + 100g water) and putting it back in the fridge. No wastage and I got a loaf that I liked - not too sour with plenty of rise after an overnight ferment at room temperature.
(I now make 20-30 loaves 5 days a week and still use a similar method)
Age of the starter is immaterial, although some people are proud (and rightly so) that they've kept theirs going for years, decades, etc. The oldest I started is about 5 years old, and the oldest I started from someone elses could be over 20 years now... (although there really is nothing in it that was in it 20 years ago - think Triggers Broom, etc.) They do go through a period of change before they stabilise though, so the starter you started with on week 1 will be different a month or 2 down the line, but it will stabilise.
I've never used pineapple juice or anything else to get a starter going. Just seems to work for me, but I do use organic stoneground flour in the early days then transition to white flour.
Get that starter going today and happy bread making!
-Gordon
Great line from Terry Pratchett about axes that reminds me of starters:
“This, milord, is my family's axe. We have owned it for almost nine hundred years, see. Of course, sometimes it needed a new blade. And sometimes it has required a new handle, new designs on the metalwork, a little refreshing of the ornamentation . . . but is this not the nine hundred-year-old axe of my family? And because it has changed gently over time, it is still a pretty good axe, y'know. Pretty good.”― Terry Pratchett, The Fifth Elephant
I'd forgotten that one. It's probably due a re-read.
Triggers Broom here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUl6PooveJE
for non UK folks the back-story is that Trigger (a street cleaner) has just won an award for having the oldest broom...
-Gordon
I was in Sonoma California about 6 weeks ago loading up on Vella Cheese/Bear Flag and was talking to a local when I mentioned we were going to drop by the Basque Bakery for some bread.
I hit a nerve. Seems a year ago it changed hands, and the locals claim that they threw out the old starter and the new starter was not as good... I kept my mouth shut and did not say "But hydration and temp have more to do with taste than the age or history of the starter."
I got a pretty good "taste memory" and it was spot on. Some people just don't like change.
I have to say...thank you so so much...Ive just read through all the comments and everything written has been tremendously helpful...
I have some follow up questions.......sorry, my mind works a million miles...lol...I ended up not going to the store and will start my starter after I buy some supplies so...its still happening but day 1 will probably be later this week LOL
1. I decided Id like to start with rye flour because someone said and Ive read also that rye is the best to start with/easier growth or etc...however...WOW is it expensive...so Ill maintain with white--Im not concerned if a small percent of the bread is white, its a tiny percent and for us I think thats ok as we arent hardcore about it being 110% rye/wheat lol......from what I understand...when I am ready to "build up" the starter, I build up with whatever flour I want to use, and then remove it for use, and then from there when I go back to maintaining the starter with white flour......and is there anything specific to these transitions? Like...If I have a white flour starter...build up with rye...then extract what i need for use and continue feeding it with white....will it mess up or just go back to its normal self i.e. do i need to do anything specifically or just...build up extract and then back to feeding...nothing crazy ?
2. Someone said this "You won't have an established starter for a week but it will take a month to mature." ....All the recipes Ive seen said the starter is ready to use after a week......is that right? Whats the difference then between usable and "mature" ...by mature do you just mean stable? I plan to refrigerate so it says after it gets going I just feed every week---still true or do I feed everyday until MATURE despite refrigerating? Again, just triple checking
3. Someone also said...feed the starter by WEIGHT not "cup" measuring...This is interesting because a lot of recipes Ive seen gives cups for the water/flour...so Im glad I caught this now LOL.....so as long as I use the 2:1:1 which I understand to be something like this : remove everything but 200g starter, then add 100g water and 100g flour ---feeding once a week for refrigerated starter (or whatever measure I decide)....this is the correct way to feed for 100% hydration? ......=/ is that right?
4. Someone also said sourness as in the marketed "sour" dough bread type taste is something I have to work on.....so from what I understand using the starter wont really make a bread overly sour which was my first impression, so glad someone brought this up.........how do I then...make my bread sour lol...I love that sourdough taste which is why Im obsessed with an answer to this ha!
Also.........I do live outside San Francisco, CA...someone mentioned that where I live might play a part in how breads taste/starter taste....Im hoping that gives me an upperhand on the sour taste...=/? ....lol.....And I do know I can buy a starter but....Id like to try making one, it seems easy....at least I think...if I fail twice Ill buy one and just continue cultivating lol....but we will see.
5. So the hydration issue.....In the long term....being 100% hydrated starter, or less or more.....how does this play into how the bread comes out---Ive read a few things on this site about this but Im super confused on this, wondering if someone can "dumb it down" for me lol
6. Using recipes that call for commercial yeast, how to convert? I have found some great recipes that call for starter that I think I like BUT...if I find some with commercial yeast how do I convert or etc...again I read a few things on this site but...Im super confused on this as well and need some dumbing down easy way to do it...lol
7. Ive read that..building up or maintain whatever it is...with different flours...the solution will look different...i.e. wheat looks like it bubbles more kinda?.....What should I look for for each flour if something going wrong? The flours Im concerned about are white whole wheat and rye.........Anyone have a link with pics for all flours or...links in general with info on this topic?..................AND Ive read its hard for beginners to start with doing whole wheat maintain...not sure why but is there any truth to it...if so Ill start with white flour, if not, as someone said Ill maintain with whole wheat instead which is certainly preffered.....
8. IMPORTANT QUESTION.....Since we dont always bake bread...after I initially get this starter going/mature...can I just maintain it with the once a week feeding/refrigerating with say...1tbs and NOT remove any excess? Will feeding it a minimum amount and not removing any spoil it or mess it up? I just dont forsee us eating that much bread/pizza crust/pancakes lol......Whats the purpose of removing excess besides size of starter growing ridiculously? If I can just feed it a tbs or something I think it would be cost efficient and able to use it as needed......but is it possible?
Thank you so so much everyone, Im looking forward to my follow up questions being answered, Thank you to all for taking a minute to answer, everyone gave some great links and information!!!
Sorry so many questions lol....
P.S. I read that rye helps with the sour taste so I definitely would initially like to do my first loaf whenever ready..with rye.........and see.........plus we like rye and whole wheat.................anyone know where to get rye that doesnt cost a bazillion dollars =/ ?
P.P.S. I had planned to use this....but its in tbsp and cups...and ie. it says 1/4 cup flour and 1/4 cup water...as mentioned above ...to go by weight...and this recipe doesnt...lol.....so now Im confused on this as well lol
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/233/wild-yeast-sourdough-starter
You might want to consider cost per loaf instead of cost per pound for the rye flour in your starter. Depending on how you maintain it, how much you use per bake and whether you do a multi-stage build to get the full amount you bake with, the cost per loaf can be as little as a few cents.
I suggest you go and make some bread. Just simple yeasted bread. It will take you 3 hours. Then you can relax with some nice warm bread and contemplate your next move.
so go out - buy some digital scales, then some organic white flour, a packet of yeast and get going. 500g flour, 7g salt, a sachet of yeast (it will typically be 7 or 9 g) and 320g of water. Mix that all up, leave it 20 minutes, give it a quick knead, leave it and hour, tip it out and give it another light knead, put it in a tin, leave it an hour then into a hot oven. (230C) 30 minutes later you'll have bread.
-Gordon
I don't think there's a single best way to feed your starter that applies under all circumstances, so look for one that fits how and how often you bake.
When your starter has become active, bake a loaf and see how well the sourness suits your palate. Once you know whether you want more ore less sourness, there's info and expertise aplenty here to tell you how to get it.
Same caveat as before: I'm not a master baker or microbiologist, but I do get good, consistent results from the one recipe I care to make. I'm trying to share my "knowledge" as much as I am hoping to find out what I have wrong.
FLOUR TYPES FOR STARTER MAINTENANCE
My feeling is for your situation it will be fine to build the starter initially with rye, maintain it with all purpose white flour, and build up prior to baking also with all purpose white flour. Until you have established predictable results with your bread, keep the number of variables down and don't . Later, when you feel you have your basic recipe figured out, then you can start experimenting with other flour types in the starter itself. Although, I would think even then it would be better to think of the starter simply as the medium and vehicle for the yeast and bacteria you need to make the bread. The type of flour you use in the starter shouldn't be a major concern, and you'll be better off just using the same thing all the time.
WHEN IS STARTER READY TO USE
I'd say a week is a bit early. I'd say two weeks would be fine.
FEEDING BY WEIGHT NOT BY VOLUME
Yes, I agree with this. Recipes that recommend measuring by volume are terrible recipes for bread. Better recipes will give you weights, even better recipes will just give you percentages. Baker's percentage is a pretty simple concept and really worth knowing. You'll be wanting a digital scale that measures to the gram and has a capacity of a couple pounds.
SOURNESS OF THE BREAD
All I know about sourness so far: Sourness comes from the acid produced by lactobacillus, which is a companion to the yeast in your starter. The yeast is productive in a narrower temperature range than the bacteria. So if you ferment your bread in either a very warm environment or a very cool one, you'll get sourness. If I were to choose between the two, I'd go for cool (as in refrigerator) because it's easier to manage and the flavor is superior. If you ferment it in moderate temperatures, the sourness won't be there. This is based on the science and also based on the recipe I always make which has 10% rye and 90% wheat flour, and the starter is maintained on white flour.
Some say that where you live makes a difference because the yeast in your starter comes from the air. Others say it makes no difference and either the organisms are the same everywhere, or the yeast in your starter actually came from the flour you used initially. Maybe there's a scientific article somewhere that settles this.
Also, I think you'll be happier if you make your starter instead of buying one. It's pretty satisfying to do that.
CONVERTING YEAST RECIPES
You should be able to find somewhere an estimate of the amount of yeast in a particular quantity of starter at its peak (ready to be fed). You can use that to determine how much starter would contain the amount of yeast the recipe asks for. Of course, you will run into the problem that most recipes specify the yeast required by teaspoons or packets, so you'll want to figure out the amount of yeast in a teaspoon or packet. If you're not excited to do the math, maybe your best bet is to post it on the board here and someone will convert it for you.
DIFFERENT FLOURS => DIFFERENT APPEARANCE AND BEHAVIOR OF STARTER
I don't know much about this. I would repeat my recommendation that you always put the same flour into your starter regardless of whether you're just feeding it or if you're building it up for a recipe. At least early on. White flour is great for keeping a starter going. The organisms really don't need more, and they don't care about variety. The flavor of the starter is not really relevant to the flavor of the final product anyway, at least as far as I can tell.
STARTER HYDRATION
100% is typical. I believe that's just a standard and really is less about the bread and more about keeping a healthy starter. There are other percentages people use, and those starters seem to require different techniques and timing for management. I don't have experience with them.
MANAGING THE STARTER WITHOUT THROWING AWAY EXCESS
What you describe doing will ultimately kill your starter. It will be unusable within a week or two. The organisms are exhausting the food supply in the flour already in the starter. You need to match the exhausted food supply with an equal amount of fresh food supply to keep them going. So if you don't remove excess, you'll double the amount of starter you have with each feeding, and it won't be long before your house is filled with starter (literally). During maintenance I keep about 40g of starter. Each morning and each evening I get rid of 20g and then add 10g of flour and 10g of water. If you keep your starter in the fridge you could do this once per week instead of twice a day.
#1 - yes start with rye but once it gets going feed it with the flour of choice. You can maintain it in the fridge as a rye starter or a white flour starter or wholewheat . the choice is yours but start with the simplest and as you get confident and the starter matures (remains active and happy) you can change to any flour you like. When you want to bake bread, take a small amount of starter (put the remainder back in the fridge) and build the levain as per recipe, this may well be a different mix of flour from what you have used in your starter. As your confidence grows, experiment, make a second starter to try something new.... most of all ENJOY,
I'll let others comment on the other questions.
Leslie
You don't have to keep much either. Nor do you have to maintain many starters. Simply keep in the fridge and take a little off each time to build with. You can do builds with different flours and/or hydration. Once your starter in the fridge runs low (no less than 1 tablespoon) just take it out and feed it. Allow it to bubble up by 2/3rds and return it to the fridge. The process starts again. No wastage and you don't have to keep anymore then one starter. Whole rye starters are very hardy and keep well.
i recently added to my starters by making a rye starter. Theperfectloaf.com has a very good set of instruction for creating a starter from a blend of all purpose and rye while weekendbakery.com makes a rye "slush" for a starter. Either site provides comprehensive instruction.
As as for the pineapple starter I did do that but I have since found it to be completely unnecessary. I'm not sure why people have trouble. I have been lucky I guess. But starters are not a challenge. The biggest challenge is being patient. Just because your instruction says day 4 looks like this that might not be the case in your environmeant. It might be shorter or longer, look a little different that the illustration Etc. it's pretty hard to duplicate exactly what another has done when it comes to baking
I have always used organic flour for getting a starter going as per the advice by many accomplished bakers on this site. I think it's good advice.
Patience is key. And spending some time reading up on what works for,others and then working out a plan for yourself.
I would also advise not angsting over converting yeast formulas to sourdough or naturally leavened. Once you get baking and get a feel for it conversion will come naturally.
Enjoy yourself. Sourdough baking is really is a very satisfying occupation to immerse yourself in.
I agree with all of this, except I don't know much about rye starters.
I'm responding in particular to the part about converting yeast recipes to use starter. It reminds me that it's possible to vary the amount of starter in a recipe and get good results. More starter means less fermentation time, and less starter means more time to ferment. There are discussions about this and formulas.
But the point is, that it isn't necessary to convert recipes at all. More important is 1) making sure that the flour from the starter is somewhere above about 10% of the total flour in the recipe (I have mine at 17.5%), and 2) adjusting fermentation time to account for the variance. Or the alternative is to target the starter flour % to be about the same as for a known recipe and then the fermentation and proofing times can be compared directly.
Appreciate all the answers.....so when I'm ready to build up and bake do I need to take out a bit of the starter and build it up in a different jar? Someone mentioned this and I thought u just build it up in the same jar and then remove and then feed it back with the original flour...is that an issue..do I have to build up in a diff. Jar:/? also I decided to start and maintain with white...it seems the easiest and most beginner recipes suggest it...lol....and when the time comes "build up" with rye or wheat etc, as I said we aren't die hard and r ok if it's not 100% whole grain........thanks for all the responses!!
Private messaging isn't working on some accounts, so it isn't an option for everyone.
Last time I checked, the purpose of this board was to discuss.
Another thread could be started to discuss another topic. Not sure what kind of moderation there is on this board, but I do think sooner or later discussions not related to the original topic should be scrubbed out of the thread.
What I do is to make a flour-and-water slurry (batter) in a different vessel, add a small amount of storage levain and let it ferment at room temperature for eight hours. Any excess starter is added to the storage levain and goes back in the fridge.
Hey, is this required though? Or benefit to separating?...it seems like if u r adding it back the excess...it wouldn't matter? And also as I said every recipe has said build it in the same jar....unless I'm reading wrong? Just curious if it matters/doesn't........and especially if I build up with a new flour then go back to white....but I think it won't matter...? Can u expand? Thank u
alao...I dunno what's going on above with the attitude or fighting but yes take it elsewhere, I'm here to legit ask questions not host a fight...make ur own thread :)
...between feeding ones levain (you're ongoing starter) and then taking the starter from there or taking a little off from the levain and building a pre-ferment?
Well the difference is the same as the difference between a 6 and two 3's.
What are the advantages of either?
Well the first way is OK if you bake often and permanently need starter ready on the go.
Second way... It allows a person who bakes less frequently to manage their starter better and to build to different hydration and flour.
One also should remember that the stage you use the starter is when it has peaked. Should a person who bakes less frequently now return their starter to the fridge it will 'exhaust' its supplies quicker and go hungry. So should be fed before returned to the fridge. But then if its fed again when you wish to bake you'll be building a lot!
As a once a week baker I'm in favour of the second way. I'll take a little off and feed it each time. This allows me to build different starters to different specs for the recipe I'm doing. When my levain in the fridge runs lows I'll take it out and feed it. Allow it to bubble up by 1/2 - 2/3rds then with some supplies left I'll return it to the fridge. And the process starts again. I'm not slave to my starter and I never discard.
For the occasional baker whole rye starters (or levain which is the correct terminology for your ongoing starter from which you build) work best. They are very hardy and easy to keep.
One must also work out how much is good to keep, or build for the fridge, at any one time. When managed well you won't need to keep a lot. I generally build to 90g - 100g and never let it fall below one tablespoon.
Just build enough but not too much for the fridge. Enough to see you through a few bakes to build with but not too much which will mean a long time between feeds.
It isn't required to keep your maintenance starter separate from your build starter. You'll have the same amount of starter ready at the same, as long as you add the excess from the maintenance jar over to the build jar with each feeding. Keeping them separate might offer you some advantages.
One advantage would be maintaining in the fridge and less frequent maintenance, while build in warmer temperatures to build up faster.
The other advantage is keeping your maintenance starter separate from your build starter is security against using every bit of your starter in your bread and being left with none. I've been close to doing this myself.
Another is if you actually plan to use other flours in the build starter that you'd prefer not to get into the maintenance starter.
But ultimately it's just down to your preference. I'd repeat my recommendation that early on you want to limit the variables so you'll have a better chance to diagnose what factor led to a bad outcome. Be consistent with the starter, and work on a simple white flour recipe (which will still taste amazing) until you understand how things are working.
You will need to come to terms with baker's percentages, weighing ingredients, autolyse, fermentation, stretch (or slap) and fold, no-knead, proofing, shaping, scoring, oven spring and baking temperatures. You'll probably want to have digital scales, an oven thermometer and baking stones and maybe a couche or bannetons (for proofing in temperatures above 60F).
I've gone another step beyond that: a wine cooler for controlled fermentation, and a balance scale so I don't have to deal with the drifting accuracy of the digital scales.
Maybe it seems a bit intimidating right now, but after 5 to 10 attempts you'll come to realize it's no more challenging than owning a goldfish. A goldfish that gives you lots of really great (and healthy) bread.
You could use your starter straight from the same jar you keep your storage starter in. You might not like the results, though.
why is that?
if i mix/feed in a different bowl and sit...while I clean the glass jar out...then back into glass jar...and build it up...let sit.....extract what i need....mix/feed in a different bowl and sit and back in the fridge...(glass)
And the stuff Ive extracted grows in the bowl on the counter to use (plastic)
The only thing Im seeing is that people dont like doing this because the storage container gets dirty...seems like a pretty easy fix to me..wash it...while in the process......am i missing something though lol? Also I just bought one glass container for storage...I figured once its out and doubling it can be in a plastic bowl?.....(right?)...I read a lot of hype about glass storage...but just bought one glass container.....
so....is there an issue with the above ^^...am I missing something? or is it just preference? Im really asking because I havent done it before lol...
Lives in, each time, actually risks contamination. If kept properly its basically self cleaning. The good bacteria keeps the bad at bay. Just make sure the utensils you use when taking some out is clean. When feeding simply put the water in first and use that to clean down the sides followed by the flour.
Ok so I understand what you say about feeding....how often should the jar be cleaned then?
And if I use a separate container to "use" the starter (vs discard)...and build up, can it be this :LARGE mixing bowl I just bought...that was it can be built up, then all bread ingredients mixed and levain in the same container? Any issue with that?
I only clean mine every so often. If its getting messy and there are dried out bits all over the place then by all means clean it. It's just not necessary every time. I've cleaned mine out just a few times this past year. Obviously you'll have to be the judge here. When you're cleaning it out just be vigilant.
Sometimes I'll build in the dough bowl if I'm building a large amount of starter. It does make it easier. When it comes to making the dough just add the water and mix followed by the rest of the ingredients. It also gets around the problem of getting all the starter in when transferring.
If I'm not making a lot of starter and I think the bowl will be too big then I'll do it in another container and transfer when making up the dough. Depends on what I'm doing and mood. There's no wrongs here. I don't think all your questions have absolute answers. Everyone will differ with their preferences.
ok...right on, I bought a glass measuring cup to keep the starter with plastic wrap....
and ...a set of multi size mixing bowls so I think I can get around the big/small bowl size dilemma with the options I have..:)
YAY....sorry so many questions guys.....lol today is Day 1, I finally have all the stuff!!!!
Hard plastic Tupperware jar with a screw top. What you have sounds fine but plastic wrap for a lid, while OK, wouldn't be my preference. But then again a plastic Tupperware container wouldn't be the preference of those who like glass jars. Just be careful of accidents. Without a proper lid you don't want spillages. Many plastics won't be suitable as starters are acidic and there might be issues with that especially if it lives in it. But I think the hard Tupperware is OK and hey my starter seems just fine.
Your dough bowls sound just fine. Best of luck.
why is plastic not ideal...i Read that it MAy dry out a little but could just add a little extra water here and there in between feedings? also I can rubber band the plastic on.....
is that ok?
But its whatever works. It's a glass jar so the starter is fine. The plastic wrap is just the lid so not a problem. I was just concerned about spillages.
If the container was a thin plastic then I'd be concerned but its glass so its fine.
It's daunting when you first start but it becomes second nature soon enough. Enjoy the ride :)
ok, good...
Yes it is a lot of info.....and Im the type that asks 5 billion questions about any possible thing....no matter the subject LOL...
so, its nice to find this site.......
Thank you!! We shall see....
Flour, water, yeast and salt. Make some basic breads, practice dough handling, shaping, baking, etc. before trying sourdough. Do it today.
-Gordon
Even if you just begin with a basic all-white no-knead loaf, you'll start to learn how dough behaves and what it looks and feels like at various stages.
in the fridge. It starts off at about 100 grams and as Abe does I take out what I need to build what the recipe says (in a fresh bowl) put the rest back in the fridge. I only wash the container when I rebuild it every couple of months once the quantity get down low. A bit scary the first time you do it, but it works well and you don't have to threw anything away. I dried some and store it sealed plastic bags in my pantry "just in case".
Have fun and happy baking!
Leslie
To keep a back up.
Yes, all this can sound like information overload. We've all been there. Only way to learn is to practice. Theory can only take one so far. I'm sure samin1987 will be fine. Time to make bread :)
I keep mine in Bell jars with the flat lids just sitting on top without the ring. The CO2 can escape, foreign materials are kept out, moisture stays in. I prefer glass, just because I'm trying to cut down on how much my food is exposed to plastic.
I suppose someday we'll find out it was glass, not plastic, that was the real health hazard.
The containers don't need to be washed every time you feed.