The Fresh Loaf

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In searh of sourness

fusan's picture
fusan

In searh of sourness

Hi all

Like many others on this forum, my wheat starter lost most of its sourness after a few months.

So Ive searched this forum for solution and found a lot of great threads about it. What I found out

was that I was feeding the starter too agressively at roomtemperature, which favor Yeast.

I started to make my sourdough with coarse (whole grain?) wheat, but that didnt help much.

So I tried the Detmold method that uses different temperature and hydration at each feeding to favor each bacteria.

This method is usually used for rye but it was worth a try with wheat. The result was actually a good deep flavour, but not much sour.

Currently Im trying a stiff (50%) starter, that ferments for 24 hours at low temperature to make it develop more acedic acid.

I know that rye is supposed to make enhance the sourness, but I wanna try only wheat. Eventually, when I run out of options, Ill add some rye.

I know that it is not only the sourdough that needs to be sour and I do retard the dough for 10-12 hours in the fridge to add some sourness to it.

Its not that I want a very sour bread, but I just wanna squeeze more taste out of it and I got the impression that the sourness is a big part of it.

So in my search for sourness I stumbled upon one question... some say to use a stiff starter, while others use a very liquid starter in order to get it more sour.

I know my local bakery use a very liquid starter and the bread is fairly sour, but many people get sourness with a stiff starter.

So why does someone using high and others low hydration starters but both seem to achieve the same result...

sourness.

 

 

 

Dan001's picture
Dan001

You are right. You can get a sour levain from a 100% hydration just like you can get the same results with stiff levain.

In fact if you are already familiar with the Detmolder, you should have notice that the second stage at 50 to 60% hydration at 24Celcius for a period of 24 hours produce a acitic acid( sour taste that you are looking for).

If you let your 100% liquid levain over mature in 24 hours, it will also develop acetic acid. 

It is usually more convenient in a production environment to keep a liquid levain but it is also more convenient to have a stiff levain if you are not planning to use it for a few weeks.

 

Happy baking

 

suave's picture
suave

If you don't mind me asking - where's that 24 hour number coming from?  Classic German sources talk about 6-10 hours, depending on the temperature, for the second stage.

fusan's picture
fusan

There are more sites with that info but this is the site were I found it:

http://germanfood.about.com/od/germanfoodglossary/a/Detmolder-Three-Phase-Sourdough-Method.htm

 

fusan's picture
fusan

I tried to let the sourdough ferment overnight this time. It was very sour the next day, but when I fed it, it didnt raise to double. So I fed it again and this time it exploded to tripple size within 2 hours. This was all at 85 deg F. The breads (yes there was two a few hours ago) had excellent oven spring and looks good, but still not much more sour than usual.

Now I mixed at stiff sourdough at 66% with only Rye. This one is really stiff. After 4-5 hours I tried to dissolve it with water but it was really hard to do. I even converted it from 66 to 100% but it still very dry and stiff. But lets see what happens with this one.

What do you people with stiff starters do? Do you mix it up to 100% when you need to use it for (wheat) bread, at the first feeding or leave it at 66%.

Do you mix Rye and wheat or do you stick with Rye only?

How can you tell when a starter this stiff is ready for another feeding? I mean it doesent raise to double size, does it?

 

 

 

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

Needs very high hydration when making rye bread. If making a 100% whole rye flour bread then you're looking at around 90% hydration. Making a stiff rye starter at around 65% hydration will just make a brick. No wonder why it wouldn't rise.

A stiff starter would be dough like. So you will find bread flour at 60% hydration will work well as a stiff starter. But rye flour will be like making cement.

 

fusan's picture
fusan

I was trying to understand how people see how a Rye starter at low hydration is ready for feeding. My Whole Rye starter is kept in at low hydration. When I have to use it, I take a little amount and feed so its 100% in the first feeding. Then it maintains a 100% hydration for the remaining feedings. Usually I feed it with some kind of whole wheat flour miixed with wheat bread flower. I actually never made a 100% rye bred before... even though its the traditinal bread her in Denmark.

AbeNW11's picture
AbeNW11 (not verified)

hydration i'd never know when it was ready for feeding. While bread flour starter at 100% hydration is liquid, rye starter at 100% hydration is quite thick already. I keep my rye starter at 100% hydration and it keeps very well in the fridge. Bread flour starter at 100% hydration even in the fridge forms hooch quite easily but my rye starter keeps very well. They are very hardy.

Rye "dough" (100% rye bread is never made to an actual dough but rather a batter) would be around the 90% hydration mark. As a rule you wouldn't make an actual dough unless it is mixed with bread flour and you'd have to increase the hydration taking the rye into consideration.

So if you keep a bread flour starter as a dough then that'd be 60% hydration - ish!

But rye starter kept at a low hydration, or as a dough, would still be very high at around 85-90% hydration. It would be a thick batter but you'll still be able to tell when it needs feeding. i.e. it will still be able to rise.

Whole rye flour at 65% hydration is just a brick.

fusan's picture
fusan

for clearing that one out. Had a hard time figuring out how people used that low hydration starter. But it makes

perfect sense that the low hydrations starters are only for storing.

Dabrownman also got me on the right track by telling how to feed the starter to make a levain with his excellent No Muss - no Fuss method.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

in the fridge for up to 16 weeks.  I take 10 g, or less, each week to build a levain for that weeks Friday bread bake.  I feed the levain what ever whole grains are in that weeks bake ( usually only the sifted out 20% hard bits since the levain loves them so much,)  I do 3 progressively larger feedings of equal amounts of flour and water over 8 - 12 hours depending on the time of year - less in the summer heat and try to shoot for 10% pre-fermented flour in the summer and 15% in the winter with the levain coming out  at 100% hydration hen done

If you take 10 g of stater out and feed it 10 g of flour and water for the first feeding. I mix in the whole grain flour first and then add the water.  The abrasive whole grains really cut into the starter easily.  i adjust the sour by varying the temperature of the starter, levain and dough builds.

Here is the No Muss No Fuss Starter method which delivers sour no worries.

No Muss No Fuss Starter

Happy baking 

fusan's picture
fusan

Yes I actually made this new starter/sourdough/mother or whatever it is called, from only Rye to try out your method.

Usually I just had 20-30 grams in the fridge, that I mixed up. At the end of 3 feed, I took 10g, mixed up with water

and flour. After a couple of hours I Fridged it for next use. While I liked this method, it had its disadvantages...

1. If you forget to take some for next use, its gone!

2. The starter lost its sourness by time cus it was refreshed 1-2 times a week

 

So you keep your starter whole Rye but when you make a Levain, you use the kind of Flour, the reciepe calls for

and make the levain 100%.

Do you convert to 100% for the advantage of seeing when it doubles?

It still amaze me how people know when a stiff starter or levain is ready for next feeding, when theres no visual clues.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

of rye starter at 66% hydration in the fridge when it is just refreshed,  Using 5-10 g of it a week makes it last for 16 weeks so no worry about using it all.  When i get down to 4 weeks worth left I take a bit if it and make a new rye starter of 100-120 g using the stage build method at 200% hydration until the last feeding when it is thickened up to 66%, let rise 25% before it goes into long cold storage for 16 weeks.  that way when the first batch of starter is finished up the new batch has already been stored for 4 weeks when it is first used.

There is no problem knowing when levain or starter double at 100% hydration, Here is a picture of mine from last Friday's bake. Just get a straight sided container and put a rubber band around the level when it is mixed and then just wait for it to double.  This  one was about 80% when the picture was taken 1 3/4 hour after the 3rd feeding but it doubled in 2 hours with it being 88 F in the kitchen

fusan's picture
fusan

Im gonna try your suggestion with the two shifted starters, so theres allways sour bread.

Im not even sure I like it to sour, but it lacks character as it is now, so it can only be better.

Here in Denmark, we're used to, and love, the dark Ryebread (Rugbrød) and that one is sour, so Ill propobly like this

attempt to.

it cant be 

 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

a rye sour starter from scratch to rye bread in about 5 days.  The best rye starter method i have found so far and exactly like it was done in the old days in Denmark to make Rugbrod.  Here is a link on how to do it

Finally! Dark Pumpernickel!!

And another version - Really Dark Old School Sprouted Pumpernickel – In memory of Barbra

Once you get hooked on dark rye there is no hope for you:


Happy rye baking 

makebreadnet's picture
makebreadnet

It sounds to me like you have a nice, healthy starter that's adapted to your ambient.  Have you tried using only bottled water for your starter?  I have hard water that's fairly chlorinated and noticed that my starters also sometimes 'lack' a little bit of the sour taste.  I combat that by letting the dough do it's final proof in the refrigerator overnight (and sometimes longer!), which helps develop the flavor a little more.

Another trick that seemed to help my cause was to feed the starter with a 50/50 mix of bottled water and orange juice.  I think the pH of the juice and the sugars in it helped to revive some of the "oomph" of the starter but that didn't last after I started feeding the 'beast' again with tap water.  

You can also take your tap water and let it sit in a cup for 1-2 hours to let the chlorine escape, but that won't remove any other minerals from it.

Regardless of your sour factor, that's a nice looking loaf!

drogon's picture
drogon

contains vitamin C, aka ascorbic acid, aka "flour improver". It'll act to give the gluten a bit of a boost, although just how much is anyones guess...

Chlorine will go from a jug of water in a few hours, but it might be wise to make sure it really is chlorine in your water - there seems to be a move to using chloramine which takes much longer to evaporate out.

I've never had any issues where I am with my local chlorinated  tap water though.

-Gordon

fusan's picture
fusan

is the only water I use for the starter. When it comes to the bread, I use tap water. It is actually very

chlorinated and contains a good deal of chalc here. I also allways let the breads retard overnight in the fridge.

Im currently trying only Rye flour to feed my starter in hope to make it more sour... along with lower hydration.

It will take some weeks in the fridge for this rye sourdough to get really sour though.

Dabrownman has me inspired and Ill use his excellent idea about having two starters, like he mentions

in his posts above.

 

fusan's picture
fusan

Allready when they were in the oven, I noticed a different smell. More sour and I guess more deep smell of bread. It didnt pop as much as the wheat only starter, but its not a bad thing in my book. This could be caused by the rye only starter and I also notticed that the breads were a little more (over)proofed, coming out of the fridge.

When I sliced it, I discovered a more dense crumb. Maybe this is a result of the rye only starter too.

The crust is a little more tough than usual, but it smells very good and tastes even better.

The taste of this bread is way better than usual. It has character, a deep concentrated taste of bread with a good deal more sourness than before. I think the rye gives it the more sour, but also changes the taste of it. For the better, if you ask me.

So all in all Im pretty satisfied with the progress so far and Im only just at the begining :)

 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

which cut back the bloom and the open crumb.  You just have to catch it earlier.  This will happen if you do shaped final proof in the fridge.  Can't do much about it while you are sleeping.  If it bothers you, you can always do a quick gentle shape right out of the fridge, reproof on the counter for about 45 minutes and bake.  The thing to remember is to only let it proof to 50% this time rather than 80%.  It will bloom and spring like normal.

 I don't think it was necessary for this bread, looks fine to me.  but I always go for the taste dn another quick proof on the counter the next morning will help that too!

Looks great and I'm glad the sour is back.

Happy baking 

fusan's picture
fusan

Now that Im thinking about it I left the breads for 1/2 hour longer after I shaped them, just before puting them in the fridge, so that propobly was the reason for the little smaller oven spring.

Another thing I would like to ask you is...

In your No Muss No Fuss method I notticed that you feed les that a 1:1:1 ratio. 

I currently add a bigger postion of flour at the last feeding, so the bacteria can have sothing to feed from, but since you dont do that, I was wondering if theres a reason for the smaller feedings.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

Build

1st

1st

 

2nd

2nd

 

3rd

3rd

 

 

Seed

Flour

Water

Total

Flour

Water

Total

Flour

Water

Total

H2O

10

10

10

30

20

20

70

40

16

126

65.7%

8

8

8

24

16

16

56

32

13

101

66.1%

6

6

6

18

12

12

42

24

10

76

66.6%

 

The seed is 100% hydration so half the weight is flour.  If you use the first line to end up with 126 g of Stiff rye starter the first feeding is 10 g each of flour and water twice the initial starter amount of each.  The 2nd feeding is twice the first or 20 g each of flour and water.  The 3rd feeding is twice the 2 nds feeding of flour, or 40 g, but only 16 g of water which thickens it up to  66% hydration and a total of 126 G.  Let it rise 25% and store in the fridge for up to 16 weeks using 5-10 g of it for each levain over that time.  When you get down to the last bit just refresh it .

Here is the original post 

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/40918/no-muss-no-fuss-starter

 

 

 

fusan's picture
fusan

Expressing myself in english really... sucks.

What I ment was that normally I feed my starter 1:1:1, 1 part sourdough, 1 part Water and 1 part Flour.

Your feeding ration is lower. If I take the same eg that you just did, it is: 10, 10, 10, which is 1:1:1

Then you change to 30, 20, 20 which is 1:0.6:0..6 and the last feeding is even lower... 70, 40, 16.

Is there a reason that you go lower than 1:1:1? I mean, does it shorten the interval for feedings or?

 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

I suppose we are combining 2 different things and ending up at the same place:-)  Many folks would make a levain of 150 g at 100% hydration using 50 g each of starter, flour and water and let it sit 8-12 hours till it doubles in volume and then use it.  This would have 75 g of flour and 75 g of water in it with 33% pre-fermented flour.  

If I did that, I would have to have at least 50 g of starter on hand for one loaf of bread ...which would be half of what I keep on hand at the worst case now.  i would need a huge store of starter in the fridge to last me 16 weeks - and it wouldn't at 100% hydration anyway - at least not very well.

When making 150 g of 100% hydration No Muss No Fuss Levain you end up with almost  the same amount of flour 76 g and 74 g of water in the mix (instead of 75 g each).  The one g difference in each is in the 10 g of stiff starter that isn't at 100% hydration and has 6 g of flour and 4 g of water in it to start .  This way you have less than 8% pre-fermented flour in the final 150 g of levain - instead of 33% in a single stage levain

Less pre-fermented flour means longer time to ripen and better flavor.   A 3 stage levain also allows you, (if you want, to change hydration, temperature and flours at each stage) to bring out different flavors in the levain.  

If you used 10 g of starter and added 70 g each of flour and water to do a 1 stage levain build of 150 g total, one problem you might. or could run into this way. is having too low a starting pH in the mix supplied by the small starter amount.  This might allow the bad LAB not suited to low pH (being supplied in the new flour - especially if using whole grains) to start running wild in the mix until the pH rowers enough to shut them off and let the LAB supplied by the starter to take over - which would just slow things down.

So ,to stop this from possibly happening and keeping the pH higher at all times, the 3 stages takes care of this .  The first stage pre-fermented flour is 37% (6 /16).

I just want to make sure that the flour being added at each stage is more than the fermented flour in the mix it is being added to so it can't run out of food.  You end up with the same amount of flour in the mix as you would a 1;1;1 single stage levain, The first stage would seem a little light on flour but the cold starter and the lag time of the LAB and especially the yeast make the first stage different and slower than the following two stages.

The No Muss No Fuss.gives you more flexibility, allows for much smaller storage amounts of starter and gives you a better flavor .....a win- win - win - with no waste or discard too!  Being thrifty (no discard) and very lazy (no starter maintenance for as long as possible) while wanting better tasting bread in the end (less pre-fermented flour and the long cold storage of the starter)  were the criteria for this starter.

Another way to be really lazy with a starter is to just stiffen up a bit of the leavin you make for a loaf, 10 g or so.  and save that in the fridge for the next bake.  Two problems,  If you forget to hold back part of the levain you have to start a new starter from scratch, I'm too lazy for that,  You also lose out on the flavor building long cold storage of the starter for weeks and weeks in the fridge.

Hope this helps

fusan's picture
fusan

and I thought there were a simple answer to my question. Thank you for taking the time to go so much in detail, its much appreciated and Im allways happy to learn somthing new.

One of the problems with beeing new, is that even though theres a lot of great information on this site, you dont know what to look for. Usually it comes slowly as your knowledge progress and you hear about a new  subject/expression/method/etc and do a search.

I actually used to store a little amount of starter and mix it up. Then took a little part and stored it in the fridge for next time. Like you mention theres few issues with this method... If you forget to take some for next bake and the lack of the sour flavour.

With your methog theres some other advantages... You can experiment with new flours without it affecting your starter in the fridge if you dont want other flours in it. You also dont need two starters for eg wheat and a rye. If you want to make a wheat bread you just feed it with wheat from the begining. If you want more rye and sour taste, you just feed it with rye only. Theres many advantages to your method compared to have a small amount of starter and use it all every time.

Actually as I type this post, my first Levain from the stiff rye starter is being fed with wheat only for white bread... or maybe pizza. It raised to about double size on the second feeding, so it seems to work. the problem with my old method was that it took more than 3 feedings to get the levain up and peeking. I hope I can avoid the many feedings with this stiff rye sourdough.

Its late here so Ill have to throw it in the fridge in the middle of the third feeding and take it out tomorrow.

I hope it gets more sour after the night in the fridge.

 

 

 

 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

we will post tomorrow, has 2 very different levains made from 5 g each of the same stiff rye starter.  They couldn't be more different. One of the 5 g was fed white AP flour and the other was fed the sifted out 20% hard bits from the sprouted 4 grains in the final mix - wheat, spelt, rye and Kamut.  both were built over 1 stage but stirred at the 2 and 5 hour marks, left to double on the counter at 86 F and then retarded for 24 hours.  One came out mellow and sweet after the retard and the other was as sour as sour could be.  We will have to see how they work together in the same bread to hopefully create a more complex flavor.

Anything is possible when it comes to levain but you only need 1 starter for all of them::-)

Happy baking  and sweet .....eeeerrrrr.....sour dreams

fusan's picture
fusan

Todays bake 12 aug 2015

I used the no muss no fuss method (nmnf) for the 2cond time with this bake.

The sourdough has been in the fridge for 7 days and I fed it with the usual 6 g nmnf sourdough, 8 g water and 6 g Whole Wheat flour for the first feed and 20,20,20 for the 2cond. It barely raised to double after 4 hours after the 2cond feed, but I thought it was accpetable so I fed it the 3rd feeding (60,60,60). This feeding was a little better. Dont know why my sourdough raise so slow. The temp was arround 23-25 deg C.

This has allways been my problem... but its a little better with dabrownman's tnmnf method... and a lot easier :)

With the recent bakes, my dough has been slightly overproofed, so this time I went for 3 hours bulk with 3 S&F, shape and straight in the fridge for 9 hours. Usually i give the bulk 4-5 hours. 

I also bought a new dough hook for my old (2004) Kenwood Major.

The one supplied is useless. All the dough climbs up the hook and gets a free ride without even touching the sides of the bowl. So I read a lot about it here and google and found out it is a comon problem. The new hook is a spiral hook and for the first time my dough was smooth, soft and glossy. Never seen this before. The windowpane was the best I have ever seen too and the machine only kneeded for 4-6 min at lowest speed. Really happy with this hook.

Btw the hook didnt fit right away since Kenwood changed their system to a bayonet. But it was an easy fix and I just used the top from the old hook and everything went great.

drogon's picture
drogon

I have a Kenwood Major too - I didn't realise there was a spiral dough hook available for it, however I've just found this:

https://www.kenwoodchefrestore.co.uk/shop/kenwood-dough-hook-major-steel-spiral

which looks the business (it seems my one has the newer bayonet fitting) and you're right - the supplied one is rubbish - why they bother, I just don't know.

Good looking bread though!

-Gordon

fusan's picture
fusan

Yes that is the exact same hook I bougt. The seller told me it wouldnt fit, but I took the chance (since I could just return it) and bought it.

If your Kenwood has the bayonet, the one you link to will fit without modifications. Otherwise it really isnt a problem to mount the old top on the new hook.

drogon's picture
drogon

That site has replied to my email - it'll fit OK, but its really recommended for ones with more powerful motors - so they recommend I buy the "titanium" as I'm a business... I'll take the risk as due to a servicing issue with my wifes K-Mix we're not going to buy another Kenwood.

Thanks,

-Gordon

fusan's picture
fusan

I had less fuss mixing with this hook than the old standard hook. The old hook would make the machine work much

harder, judging from the sound of it. With the the new one, it works much smoother.

So for me it is the opposite of what the store told you. I look foreward to hear your experiences with it.

drogon's picture
drogon

Just to follow this up - the spiral arrived on Saturday and I made bread with it that evening.

What a difference. with the old hook the dough would just cling to the hook in one ugly lump, but the spiral actually worked and kneaded the dough - all 1.6Kg of it. Effortlessly.

Well, it did wobble about a bit - more than with the hook, no-doubt due to the fact that it was actually kneading than just spinning it. The effect in the bowl was exactly like the what I see in my Hobart A200 with the dough spiral fitted (they have the same issue with the default hook).

So I might actually use that mixer for small amounts of bread dough now..

Cheers,

-Gordon

fusan's picture
fusan

I also couldnt be happier. For the first time I can actually get windpane from the mixer. Before I had to manually kneed the dough after the mixer was done, to achieve it.

Next project is the proofing box from an Igloo Koolmate 40 cooler, that I bought cheap :)

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

than the first one don't you think? The crumb is open,the spring has sprung and the bloom is blooming :-)  Hope it is m,ore sour too.  Well done and Happy baking 

fusan's picture
fusan

It didnt get a chance to get overproofed. About the sourness, not so much. Still more sour than the breads I made before but not as the first attempt with 100% rye starter. Then again, I didnt use 100% rye for the starter after the first attemp, so that could be the cause. But its ok... for now :)

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

is to and a bit of some minced onion to it.  It has been around for ever but I first saw it in post that David Snyder made.  The NMNF rye starter will get more sour as it sits in the fridge week after week too.

Still the most sour fresh rye starter I have made is the Hamelman one i posted a link to above.   Just stop before add the caramel to it if you aren't making the Pumpernickel .

Happy Baking .

fusan's picture
fusan

with the NMNF method. I think that the breads will be more sour if I build the Levain from rye only.

One thing that confuses me a bit about sourness is that some people say to build the Levain at higher temperatures (30 deg C) to get it more sour while other say to lower the temerature (21 deg C) to make it more sour.

From what I understand, there's two kind of acids/LAB in the sourdough. Lactic Acid, which is the one you can smell and Acedic Acid, which is the one you can taste. Lactic Acid thrive at higher temeratures (30 deg C) and Acedic Acid thrive at lower temeratures (21 deg C). If this is the case, then sournes should come from lower temeratures.

Ive seen Debras article but its way to technical for me. I just cant focus after a few minutes of reading it.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

to understand how temperature affects levains.  My most sour bread was a partially WW one that had a half AP and half WW levain one made from a WW starter.  So Rye may not be the best way to make sour in a white or wheat bread.

http://germanfood.about.com/od/germanfoodglossary/a/Detmolder-Three-Phase-Sourdough-Method.htm

 

fusan's picture
fusan

I know the Detmolder Method, But doesent it only apply to the rye flour? If it do apply to wheat to, then lower temperatures do create more sour.

But how did you manage to get that WW starter so sour?

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

to sour than low because low temps take a very long time to work - weeks and weeks and high ones are very fast to work.

Detmolder works for any flour from my experience.  The sour wheat was the result of a very small amount of  long retarded  rye starter, high hydration and temperatures for the levain and dough.  For some reason the sour really kicked in for that particular levain and bake but any method handled that way will produce more sour if whole grains are used.  White flour makes for weak sour.. it really can't be anything else compared to WW and Whole Rye in the starter, levain and dough.

Happy SD baking

fusan's picture
fusan

high temeratures develops Lactic Acid and low temeratures develops Acedic Acid, corret? So when you say that high temperatures gets the dough more sour, Im getting confused again :) From what I understand, Lactic acid gives flavour (and sour smell?) to the bread, but not sourness, while Acedic Acid contributes to the sour taste (but not sour smell?). So isnt it the lower temeratures that makes the bread more sour? What am I missing here? One day I will get all this :)

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

both lactic and acetic acid working in combination - sour with tang.   I suppose I should have gone a bit further to explain my normal SD bread process that include several different high and low temperatures processes - not just during the levain build.

The very long, cold retard of the rye starter (weeks), the high temperature building of the levain with its 24 hour retard after it is built, the with the high temperatures of the gluten development and short bulk ferment on the counter combined with a long, cold bulk ferment of the dough (21-24 hours) and high temperature final proof gives most of my breads plenty of both sour and tang - at least in the summer time when the kitchen temperatures here in AZ are so high.

I noticed a drop off in the overall SD flavor of my bread in the winter when the kitchen temperatures are in the mid to high 60's so now I use a heating pad to mimic the high temperature portions of my normal summertime method.  Winter bread is still not as good a summer sourdough.  maybe one day i will get a proofer to use in the winter:-)

Many people struggle, or think they will, with the high temperatures I have here in the summer when making bead but the fridge is your friend..  The least flavorful SD bread in my book is one made at room temperatures between 68-74 F.  It seems to me that those who complain here, that their bread has lost its sour, usually maintain a white starter at room temperatures.and make their bread at room temperatures too.  This method is the best way to ensure that your bread will have the least sour possible.  This isn't bad because most people do not like sour bread and why Tartine and Forkish processes do things at room temperature using white flour for the most part .  For those who have lost their sour and want more. some whole grains with a mix of high and low temperatures solves their problem most always.

Happy SD baking 

fusan's picture
fusan

since I also did everything at roomtemperature. So I bought a used Cooler (40 Litre) very cheap. One of those used at Camping and for cars with the Peltier device in it. I still havent modified it but I ordered a termostat and plan to control the temperature with it. Im not very much in to electronics, but I have a brother to help me out, hopefully.

It can heat or cool depending on how you turn the plug, so I hope to take advantage of both. Should be simple, but not if you dont have a clue about electronics.

 If I succed, Ill post a Blog about it. Maybe someone else can use the same idea... if it work :)