Method Comparisons: Tartine // FWSY
Hi All,
I am hoping some of you out there will be willing to help me understand the similarities / differences between a couple of different sourdough methods / recipes I have been using recently.
After months of practising the Tartine method for the country boule, and finally achieving desirable results, I decided to move onto the Forkish overnight country blonde method in FWSY. I was / am still very excited to see how the methods and results differ between the two, and am trying to appreciate the fundamental similarities / differences in approach.
I was hoping some of the more experienced out there could answer some queries that I have in relation to the comparison between the two great methods mentioned above…
1. With tartine, the bulk fermentation / S&F portion of the recipe lasts around 4 hours prior to shaping, and then the loaves are shaped and retarded in the fridge overnight (around 10-12 hours). However with Forkish, the bulk fermentation / S&F portion of the recipe lasts around 12-15 hours prior to shaping (p.170), and then the loaves are shaped and left for a further 3-4 hours prior to baking. Its the same approx. length of time in total for each, but one is the reverse of the other. I was wondering whether anyone could offer any insight into the pros / cons of each? Are they essentially the same approach (in terms of the twelve stages of bread), with just a different use of time at each stage?
2. As the lengthier (12-15 hr) stage of the recipe for the Forkish method is prior to shaping the loaves, this means I have essentially been leaving the dough to bulk ferment on the worktop, with S&Fs intertwined as stated in the recipe…. Whereas in Tartine, the dividing and shaping of the dough is done before the lengthier proving stage of the recipe, meaning they can be thrown into the fridge in their bannetons for the overnight prove. If I am following the Forkish method, should I be placing the unshaped dough in the fridge (to achieve the stated 12-15 hour bulk fermentation/triple in volume)? How would this work with the S&F’s?
3. Because I am used to dividing > shaping > proofing in the fridge overnight in bannetons > placing the loaves straight from the banneton into the la cloche - the loaves are cold and maintain their shape, resulting in a great bit of oven spring. With the way I am interpreting the Forkish method, there is no use of the fridge, so when the loaves are emptied into the la cloche from the banneton, they spread out considerably, and as soon as they are scored, they spread out even further. The taste of the bread is great, I’m just missing that spring I am normally used to.
As a novice, I am keen to understand the underlying principles of these well respected recipes, rather than simply copying them blindly, which is why I am very keen to compare them against each other, trying to understand their similarities / differences.
Any advice / knowledge / comments on any the above would be greatly appreciated !
Thanks,
John
Far more fermentation is going on in the Forkish method, because Tartine is slowing then stopping the process by putting it in the fridge. The yeast goes pretty dormant at 60, and completely by 40.
I find the Forkish method definitely works better (for me) if I do one of the methods that gives me an overnight proofing: 12hrs poolish/biga, 4 or 5 hours bulk, shaping and overnight (or longer) then bake in the morning.
That overnight firms it up and it won't spread after turnout from the banneton.
that work well. One is to develop the gluten over 3-4 hours a short bulk ferment on the counter and then bulk ferment in the fridge of 8-24 hours then shape and bake in .5-1.5 hours after shaping the next day, The other is to do the same gluten development with a short bulk ferment on the counter, then shape and retard shaped in the fridge for 8-24 hours. Both work out about the same when using the same amount of pre-fermented flour in the levain at the same hydration. The problem with the 2nd method is tht it can over proof while you sleep but no worries - you can just shape again and proof on the counter for halt to 1 1/2 hours and then bake like method one, Either method is pretty forgiving
If i did what Forkish supposedly says to do with such a long ferment and proof on the counte, i would have goo instead of dough to bake no matter how it was shaped - very unforgiving to say the least. Plus his method of building a levain is nuts and has been discussed many time here about how wasteful it is with his spent fuel nonsensical thought process.
For me it is the amount of pre-fermented flour I use and the temperature of the kitchen In the summer and winter. In summer, when the kitchen is 88 F I use less than 10% pre-fermented flour in the levain and try to keep the bulk or proofing retard down to 12 hours or so unless it is David Snyder's San Joaquin method that calls for 21 hours of bulk retard but no bulk ferment on the counter at all. if i use method two it will more than likely over proof in the fridge after shaping - even with a shot bulk ferment on the counter before shaping.
I n the winter, when the kitchen temperature is 64 F, i can up pre-fermented amount to 15% and have a short bulk ferment on the counter ans still get a 12 hour retard either way. Things happen so much faster when the temperatures are elevated and the 2 SD methods are much less forgiving
What I can do to get the Forkish counter method to work is cut the times down drastically in both winter and really cut them some more in the summer - but you have to watch the dough very closely and not the clock. Most folks have found out that the times mentioned by Forkish are way out of whack with reality for most of us - as are his levan builds. Since his bread moves along so fast and it is slow that makes for the best tasting SD bread by far, his bread less flavorful than other methods that slow thongs down - like David's San Joaquin.
But being a libertarian when it comes to most thongs including bread, i say to each his own. Thankfully we all don't like the same things.
Happy baking the Forkish way but don't get frustrated if you follow his times or levain builds:-)
I think you are possibly confusing "spring" vs the dough just holding its shape and then being baked. As you mentioned the dough which went through its final proof at room temperature spreads out but that should not affect the spring. Obviously the dough by comparison to the cold proofed dough will look flatter due to its starting point when removed from the banneton.
If you have a preference for the taste of the Forkish loaves you can always place the loaves in the fridge as they begin to reach the end of their final proof. The dough should not need too long to firm up and give you a dough that holds its shape a bit better. The flavour should not be impacted too considerably.
I'm with dabrownman on this. I'm working through Forkish's book and have baked the first 11 breads in his book. His time guidelines in my kitchen are entirely unreliable. Following his time line leads to over fermenting, which leads to a counter dough blob when it's time to shape. Time the stages using visual clues rather than a clock and you'll have much better results.
I'll take a guess here that his kitchen for testing his breads was chillier than many of ours considering he is from the Northwest and many homes are cooler. If that is true, then his fermentation times and proofing times exceed what a lot of other posters on TFL have said - too darn long for their own doughs.
You've done enough of them to now know that you have to cut back on timings from his book, and by now should have a vague to specific idea of what your own kitchen temp is and how that affects the dough's rise. It's the old 'watch the dough and not the clock' routine until you get it down. After that, you can generally go back to watching the clock with some level of confidence.
I think that is a place for a revision in a second edition of FWSY. To give timings for a few different ambient temps.
BTW, your bread #11 from your other post looks fabulous. Not all of them will meet meet our personal flavor palate likes. Nice going!
Here is what the book says:
Cover and leave out overnight at room temperature. The following timeline assumes overnight room temperature is between 65 ° F and 70 ° F
Forkish, Ken (2012-09-18). Flour Water Salt Yeast: The Fundamentals of Artisan Bread and Pizza (Kindle Locations 1837-1838). Potter/TenSpeed/Harmony. Kindle Edition.
So much like serving wine at room temp.. do you mean a drafty French Chateau or your Grandmother's toasty warm living room?
FWIW, my house is rarely lower than 78 during the summer. Just too darn hot here in Central California Valley. I use the 100 degree garage as my proofing room for bulk fermentation so I can shape and put in the refrigerator before going to bed.
And I'll admit that there is an element of like/preference to liking a bread - but this one was negatively affected by the super long fermentation. But that's ok, now I know.
What are some of the proofing times he gives?
Judging from the way he makes starter ...
Hi all,
Thank you very much for your comments and advice thus far.
Based on your explanation dabrownman, am I correct in assuming the two methods you mentioned are the most popular/reliable methods amongst a sea of many potential options? Or would those be the only two viable methods anyone ‘in the know’ would choose to use in regular circumstances?
Ultimately, is the consensus amongst the educated that it does not necessarily matter which option you use, providing as you mention, you watch your dough and not the clock, i.e. when it’s ready, its ready, regardless of the method you use - albeit if you retard the process and push the bulk or prove to its max, you are more likely to draw out more complex flavour?
I read a sentence in FWSY that says something along the lines of… “it’s difficult to fit your bulk dough container in the fridge in a domestic scenario, that’s why the recipes call for shaping first in this book, then retarding the prove in your banneton” – I paraphrased there, as I don’t have the book to hand at the moment, but it almost implies the choice of when to retard is simply down to logistics/the bakers schedule, rather than retarding at one specific stage being a better or worse option than another?
As with most factors, I assume the choice of whether to slow down the ‘bulk’ stage or the ‘prove’ stage is down to the individual and the preferable results achieved when trying out each option?
In which case……..
I appreciate these are very specific questions, which cannot necessarily be answered definitively. We all work in different environments and with different ingredients, but I am just trying to understand the overarching concepts, and the primary do’s and dont’s.
Thank you in advance for any further feedback you give.
Best,
Johnathan
making bread as there are bakers. I just took the two most popular that i have seen on TFL. The problem with KF's method of overnight bulk on the kitchen counter, between 64 and 70 F is that yeast are reproducing 60% faster at 70 F than they are at 64 F. What works at 64 F doesn't work very well at 70 F. This is why the old bread baking adage of watching the dough rather than clock is so wise. The dough never lies even if you are blind:-)
I have the same problem with the no knead recipe that calls for a long overnight counter bulk ferment. It is always goo in the morning . There are ways to combat this, cutting the pre-fermented flour and using ice water are the two most common but then you are sleeping and it over ferments then the only thing you can do add more flour, water and salt shape for a final proof and hope for the best.
The fridge is your friend it you are trying to get a recipe to fit into some kind of reasonable bake schedule without it turning into goo when you sleep. Bread making is pretty much the same process - Mix, gluten development, bulk ferment, shape, final proof and bake. Any method works as long as you don't over ferment or over proof it.
I prefer the shaped retarded proof method because i think the crumb comes out more open and softer that way because you handle the dough 1 less time and you handle it 8-12 hours before it is baked. The problem in the desert is that it can easily over proof in the fridge at the 8 hour mark....much less the 12 hour mark. But, when that happens, all you have to do is reshape it and bake it 1 1/2 hours later. - just like you would if you were doing a bulk retard then warm up and hour shape and bake 30 minutes later.
The fridge will eventually bring the fermenting to a near stop at 36 F but the dough is going in a t room temperature or higher and it tale at least 2 - 4 hours for it took cool off depending on how big the dough is so there is plenty of fermenting going on for long time - but after 4 hours not so much .....but it is still fermenting slowly which explains why a 12 - 18- 24 hour retard shows such little difference in volume between them where the volume difference at 2, 4 and 6 hours of retard is easy to see.
Happy baking
Retarding the bulk is "better" because you have less of a chance of having the dough stick to the basket of it is in their for less time. But, those who bake regularly must do what works for them I terms of logistics as well as end product.
65-70 degrees is where my kitchen is in the winter and Ken's proofing times were spot on for me. But come summer when it is 75, they won't work. Nor can they, unless you cut down on the leaven and yeast, and use fridge cold water.
The fridge slows the yeast but I believe the bacterial activity continues, allowing for flavor to develop without overproofing the dough.
Yor might double retard if you can't bake for some reason. But I think it would be a challenge not to overFerment.
Thank you all for your comments and advice on this. I shall do some test bakes and compare the different methods mentioned!
Best,
Johnathan