Confused about kneading and crumb holes
Best hi's. I have been uncertain about the quality of my kneading. I have in the past and in the near present been getting unsatisfactory kneaded bread. It used to be an issue of volume, now it's the holes that bother me more. is there something wrong with, during kneading, causing the dough to stretch in places until it rips; do I have to stop before that happens, to align but not rip the gluten? I never could get that windowpane test working right after kneading, like some tutorial makers can, and that seems like it could have something to do with it. Part of why it all bothers me is that I feel that it would be of importance if it did.
And about those crumb holes, I have been left in the dark as to how much development a sticky baguette dough needs, to have sufficient strength for an expansive open crumb structure, without causing too much resistance. I usually like to test that strength by pinching, but I am open to other methods.
The simple answer is yes, if you are ripping your dough when kneading you are going too hard.
Wetter doughs require less kneading, so you may find that increasing your hydration by 3-5% makes it a lot easier to see when your kneading is working. Personally I aim to work with all my doughs in the 70%+ range and do minimal kneading with just a few stretches and folds (S&F).
You may also want to check out adding an autolyze step to get more of the water into the flour before any salt or yeast start reacting. It should help with elasticity and reduce breaking.
As for the development of your baguette crumb, this is going to be very much about experience, without a proofing cabinet or retarder it's almost entirely a matter of experimentation until you just know. I personally use a poke test and look for a fairly specific response, which changes dramatically depending on the season. I poke into the center of a baguette about 1" (1 knuckle) and look for 50% or less bounce back, I like them to be just a little underproofed for a wicked oven spring.
Thanks for the precise answer. Yeah, part of the reason why my dough used to rip a lot is that not only I didn't autolyse before I kneaded, I scooped my flour with my measuring cup... so every dough I made was way too dry. is it from experience or from scientific theory that you find that dough turn out better when they don't rip?
Hi, Sebastos156.
You will get better help, if you include the formula and procedures you are using and, if you can, provide photos that illustrate the problem you are having. That said, I would urge you to get a digital kitchen scale and start weighing your ingredients. This is pretty much necessary in order to achieve consistent results, until you have had many years experience with a particular bread.
Now, to your question: The purpose of kneading is to distribute ingredients equally and to develop gluten and, by folding the dough, develop a gluten "network." That is what forms the walls of the holes in your crumb and determines your crumb "structure." So, if you are tearing the dough, you are destroying that which you have worked to create.
Happy baking!
David
I have had a scale for just over a month now. It's great!
About kneading, I'm under the impression that the structure in itself isn't set during kneading, which to me takes away from the importance of not tearing the dough at that point; isn't it just about aligning the gluten? . But, I will try for a gentler approach.
Oh I forgot to mention, I wanna know how my kneaded dough should perform before the bulk fermentation if, say, we plan on fermenting 2 hours and s.f.ing it twice.
Here is an article on mixing techniques written by Didier Rosada, one of the most trusted and knowledgable bakery consultants on the planet. Some of this will answer some of your question, and much of it may be moot for your interests. But have a look anyway. There is something that we can all glean from this article.
He also has a series of these on a website called El Club De Pan, a Spanish language website, but his articles are in English.
alan
How does one do a "too fast" rise? Is it too short a proofing time or does it have to do with temperature or something else?
Too much yeast or too high of a temperature are the possibilities.
First thing: Autolyse is a technique proposed first by Raymond Calvel specifically for baguettes. It's purpose was to allow some gluten to form with just water and flour, before yeast and salt were added. This was to shorten mechanical mixing in order to prevent oxidation of carotenoid pigments and preserve flavor. This was a reaction to the predominance of intensively mixed, industrially produced baguettes in France in the post-WW II period.
The use of autolyse has been expanded to naturally fermented breads, but, while salt is always withheld, the levain is added to the autolyse if it is liquid. A firm levain is held back until after the autolyse. I know this is not a universal practice, but it is the recommendation of the SF Baking Institute.
To Be Continued ...
David
All it takes for gluten to form is for the two shorter proteins that combine to form it is for them to be in the presence of water. However, for the desired gluten strength and structure to develop, the gluten molecules must be stretched and folded.
When you fold bread dough, whether by hand or machine mixing, you are bringing portions of the long gluten molecules next to each other. When that happens, weak chemical bonds form between the branches. These bonds are stronger in a lower pH environment and in the presence of some specific chemicals like ascorbic acid (Vitamin C). If the folding is very stereotypic, as it is with mechanical mixing, and prolonged, as it is with intensive mixing, the gluten network that forms with repeated folds is very uniform. This is the kind of crumb structure you expect in industrial breads, for example. Under a microscope, the crumb looks like woven fabric. With hand mixing, especially stretch and fold styles, the folds are inconsistent. The resulting crumb structure has a random distribution of holes of varying size. Under a microscope, the gluten network looks chaotic - like a black widow spider's web.
The stretching of the gluten molecules increases their strength also, and this permits development of a gluten sheath with shaping of the loaf that supports the loaf during proofing and baking, so you get a high loaf rather than a flat one.
The "no-knead" breads develop a chaotic crumb structure with large holes, but little gluten strength. for supporting their rise, they "lean" on the walls of their container and are baked in the same, I believe, so they don't require the strength that a "hearth loaf" does.
I hope this answers some of the questions asked.
David
Thank you, dmsnyder, for the very informative post.
This gets us back to the questions we had about the Larraburu bakery's published proofing temperature of 105 F.
Also wanna say thanks dmsnyder!!
Great explanation!
and the hits of "sticky" dough make me think about the possibility of too much flour on the work surface. Try not to use flour when kneading. Or try rubbing a clean spot with a 1/4 tsp of oil and then kneading with wet hands instead. You need just enough water on them to moisten them not have them dripping wet. Later when you get used to the set up, you can skip the oil. A shallow bowl of water nearby is handy to use if you need to moisten your hands again.
Mini