July 8, 2015 - 4:59am
Sourdough spreads rather than rises
I have an ongoing problem, in that my sourdough, during proving, tends to expand sidepays rather than upwards. The result is lovely tasting bread but which is shaped like a flying saucer rather than a nice round cob. I'm using the recipe from the River Cottage 'Bread' book as my basic, but the dough just seems too slack.
i've tried stiffening it but then I don't get the airy crumb and big holes.
I also tried proving it in a bowl and tipping it out but that just made it deflate, meaning I had to re-prove it, with the same spreading problem again.
Looking at everyone's loaves on here, I can see people are getting what I'm aiming at, so what's the secret?
My starter, Bob, lives in the fridge mostly, and I warm him up to room temp before use.
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What is the recipe and your method?
I mix a ladleful of starter and 200ml of water with 300g flour, cover and leave overnight or for at least 6 hours, until it's really active. I then mix in another 200g flour and 100ml water. I use 50:50 wholemeal and white flour.
I knead for 10 minutes using a dough hook on the mixer, then form a round and leave to rise in an oiled bowl with a cover.
once it's well risen and frothy, I add 1.5tsp ordinary cooking salt, a slosh of oil and any seeds etc i want, then re-knead for a couple of minutes, before shaping and leaving to prove on a tray, covered with clingfilm.
In the meantime, I put the oven to maximum, get some water simmering, and put a hot heavy steel tray on the middle shelf.
Once the loaf has doubled, I slash the top, spray it with water, and put the tray with the loaf on it straight onto the now very hot steel tray in the oven, before shoshing a bit of boiling water into a hot bowl on the bottom shelf. I bake 10 minutes at maximum, then down to gas 4 for another 30, on average.
I used to lift the proved loaf onto the hot tray but it was too sticky and tended to collapse, or stick to my peel.
So let's analyse this:
Preferment:
1 ladle of starter (?) by any chance do you know how many grams in a ladle?
200g water
300g flour
[If we take one ladle as a cup then its around 260g of starter @ 1:1]
So we have 760g of preferment at 77% hydration.
Final Dough:
200g flour (50:50 wholemeal:bread flour)
100g water
8.5g salt
All of Preferment
Final dough is 1068g @ 68% hydration
So not too high hydration. That's not the problem. It is an interesting recipe though. Essentially you've made 760g of starter and added a bit more flour, water and salt to make the dough.
This sounds like a biga but with a starter instead of commercial yeast.
The only thing I can think of is over fermentation which is very easy with such a high percentage of preferment. The hydration alone should not be a problem. As a recipe it is slightly unusual for a sourdough but other kind of breads, such as a biga, work on similar lines.
When forming the final dough why not add the salt in at the same time, knead till full gluten formation, add the additional ingredients and shape for the final rise which should be to 85-90% instead of doubled. I also see you don't use a banneton or anything like that. Does the recipe recommend one? Perhaps that might be the way.
even at that hydration. You need to either use a banneton or if you are making smaller loaves you can use bakers linen to provide the necessary support. Also, note Abe's comment about not letting it double in size during the final rise. You can also put the risen dough on parchment and slide the parchment dough onto your cooking steel; this will get around the sticking issue to your peel.
The reason I don't add the salt at the start is some people seem to think it will inhibit the yeasts so better to add it later. I have to say I've been doing this lately but not noticed much difference.
I'd guess a ladle is about half a cup in volume.
The recipe doesn't specifically recommend a banneton although he does say it might help retain a good shape.
Don't forget you've created a big preferment. This basically becomes your starter in the main dough.
When someone puts in 10-30% starter into a recipe they'll sometimes do as you describe. But your preferment is over 300% to the flour in the main dough. I don't think your preferment will struggle somehow.
The role of the salt is to control the yeasts. If you do such a huge amount of preferment and no salt then the opposite of inhibiting will happen. In this case will probably really need the salt when forming the dough.
Yes too much salt will inhibit but if you add the correct amount then all the ingredients will work in harmony.
Alan is right. Some support is needed.
Sourdoughs tend to become more liquid as they ferment and with the preferment ratio you've left yourself less room for error. If you aim for 85-90% proofed, and you misjudge, then you'll get doubled. If you aim for doubled then you'll easily overdo it. Final proofing is very hard to judge. Under proofed is better then over proofed.
OK, I've just been looking at proving baskets on ebay. Plenty there for not much dough ;-)
I think this is a good step. Makes for a lovely loaf.
backwards, Preferment is way too big. I would make the dough flour the preferment flour and the preferment the dough flour. The salt goes in with the dough flour. You want the salt to slow down the fermenting and it strengths the gluten too. Use bread flour for the white flour. Do some stretch and folds as the dough bulk ferments to keep the gluten in good shape. :Let it proof in a rice floured basket or bowl. If usiung a bowel, use a rice floured tea towel to line it so the dough doesn't stick. Do not proof to 100%. Proof to a bit over 90% this is hard to tell in a basket or bowel because a half to 1 inch rise in it could be 90%.. Steam for 12 minutes. at 450 F and then turn the oven down to 425 F to finish balking with the steam removed.
It certainly isn't too wet a dough at 68% hydration and a lot of whole wheat in the mix. The lowest hydration i would make this bread would be at 75% hydration.
What you have is an over fermented spreading mass where the gluten is weak. The whole thing seams backward.
No worries.... you will sort it out.
Happy Baking .
I agree that the recipe does seem over fermented. When you get the banneton, try lining it with parchment paper. That way you don't have to tip it out. Use it as a sling to remove from the banneton and place in oven. Also try retarding the shaped loaf in the fridge before taking out of the banneton. Chilled dough holds its shape better.
My interest in sourdough was re-kindled about 5 or 6 years ago when I watched a TV program with him going on about it (20+ years back I lived in the US and liked the SF stuff)
I wasn't a fan of the methods he was using at the time - very similar to yours, so I started to work out a method that worked for me and worked with me - my timings and so on. So for a very long time I was using 40% of my main recipe flour weight as my 100% hydration starter with a longish (overnight) ferment and a shorter (2 hour or so) prove after shaping and proving in a banneton, etc.
I've now moved down to 30% starter as my new bakehouse is somewhat warmer than the old kitchen and its working quite well.
I'd also start off with much less wholemeal in the mix too. The white stuff will make it easier to work and manage. The most wholemeal in any of the sourdough breads I make/sell is 30% in the spelt ones and 20% in the wheat ones.
Don't give up though!
Here's a quick recipe that I make most days (It's the Buckfastleigh Sourdough!):
100g wholemeal, 400g white, 150g starter @ 100% hydration, 8g salt (or a wee bit more) and 300g water. Mix, knead, leave overnight, shape into a boulle, put in a cloth lined basket/banneton, leave to prove (maybe 2 hours, look up the finger poke test) and into a 250C oven with a cup of water splashed on the bottom (in a metal tin) and down to 210C after 12 minutes for another 25 minutes.
That's a basic bread, nothing too special but for me it makes good consistent results and the locals buy it every day.
-Gordon
Excellent! So glad I joined the forum. Great to get some advice. As Arnie says 'I'll be back'.
I was so frustrated I was using the starter as just a flavouring in a regular bread recipe with dried yeast, but that smacked of defeatism so no, i won't give up!
Do you feel you are getting a good amount of surface tension when you form the loaf? You don't really mention forming a loaf (boule, batard, whatever shape you are using). If you're just going from bowl to oven without forming the loaf, seems to me that could be one reason you would experience the problems you describe.
Hi Yog
the others seem to have you sorted with regards to the loaf but i thought i might just add what i wrote as a 16 year old apprentice baker in my notes nearly 50 years ago
Reasons for using Salt in a dough, type of salt Sodium Chloride this is a palatable or tasting salt
1 Controls Fermentation
2 Keeps down the growth of unwanted bacteria
3 Toughens and strengthens the gluten strands giving it a good gas holding property
4 gives loaf whiteness of crumb and better crust colour
5 Gives loaf a true nutty flavour
All of those reasons are still valid today and you will notice that several of those will be impacting the problem that you are having.
Kind regards Derek
Hi Derek,
Thanks for that. Salt is only a tiny percentage but very important. Can I ask you how much salt?
I do know it is 1.8% - 2% of the flour but never sure if the flour within the starter is included.
- Abe.
Hi Abe the salt is as a percentage of the TOTAL amount of flour with 2% being the norm, a bit less if you are having problems with salt in the diet and of course if you are making fruit or sweet bread then the salt is 1%
When salt is added late either by design or nearly forgot and it doesn't get time to dissolve and disperse through a dough you will often get flecks of colour appear on the crust.
Kind regards Derek
I can now lay this question to rest.
2% of total flour from now on.
All the Best,
- Abe.
Jay: I generally flatten then roll up the dough then pull it down and under to tighten the skin, though it's not easy as the dough is sticky, even with floured hands.
Is there anything in particular you want from a sourdough like flours etc? Do you like it tangy or mild?
The tangier the better! In terms of flours, I haven't used anything special, just white bread flour and extra-strong wholemeal, but I'd like to experiment with other flours.
I'd also like to use some of my home-made cider in the hydration, but fear the alcohol might kill the yeats.
Will make a lovely loaf.
Sent you an email. Just swap the water for your cider. Watch the fermentation. I've given you times as a guide but you can follow your instincts. If you wish to go by feel then wait till doubled for the first rise and nearly doubled for final proofing after shaping.
Enjoy!
any questions don't hesitate to ask. Should you wish it more tangy then we can always adjust to your taste. But try that first.
and your home made stuff ought to be OK. I make a devon cider bread, but it doesn't sell well - mostly due to the cost! Just make sure there isn't too much sulphites in it - that'll have more an effect on the yeast than anything else (but I suspect with your home made stuff, it's "live" so will probably contribute a little!)
-Gordon
Yes it is very much live!
No sulphites to worry about, and all natural yeasts.