Question about wasteful levain volumes
Hi Everyone..
This weekend I plan on baking the FWSY 75% Whole Wheat Levain Bread.
As many of you know, Forkish has more flour in his life than he needs and would have me add 100 grams of levain to 400 grams of white flour, 100 grams of whole wheat flour and 400 grams of warm water together and leave it overnight to be used the next morning. But only to need 360 grams of levain in the bread and throw the rest away! I obviously don't want to do that!
So I'm wondering, couldn't I just multiple all the numbers above by .36 and then end up with exactly 360 grams of levain on Saturday morning and have nothing to throw away?
So I'd take 36 grams of levain from my maintained levain jar friday morning (that I would have otherwise discarded as part of my feeding routine), and add to it 400x.36 or 144 grams of white flour, 100x.36 or 36 grams of whole wheat flour and 400x.36 or 144 grams of warm water and mix them together to sit overnight. That would be 36g levain plus, 144g white four, plus 36g whole wheat, 144g of water = 360grams.
I can't think of any downside of doing it this way. What do you all (or y'all for my southern friends) think?
Many thanks!
Fresh Lofians do.
But I thought it would be fresh-loafers? :)
...names for people by adding the noun suffixes -ist, -ian, -ess, and -ar /-er/-eur/-ier/-or/-ur to the base forms of nouns...
Fresh Loafist? Loafess (for us ladies?) Loafar? (sounds like a super bread hero all in caps.)
What about Fresh Loafeur? I kinda like that one!
Maybe 'cause I'm in Europe? :)
Oh, and yes, that is how I would make up the levain, just how you said it plus scrape the jar extra good.
Does Forkish give his recipes in baker's percentages? One wonders if he is even familiar with baker's percentages.
The beauty of baker's percentages is that you can scale a recipe up or down as you like. It's worth learning baker's math.
The non-wasteful way is to keep a quantity of storage starter in the fridge, then prepare the quantity of levain you will use in your bake plus a little more to replenish the storage starter, several hours prior to baking. The storage starter then goes back in the fridge.
He does, but only for the final dough and not separately for the levain. It's easy enough to figure out though. But thanks, I just wanted to double check that reducing size wasn't a problem before giving it a go.
Can I ask you another question then. I have two starters on the go now - they're the same but in different jars. I wanted to see "how low" I could go in size. So I have one jar with 10 grams fed 1:2:2 once a day. And another with 25 grams fed the same way. While I bake through the rest of the book over the while I'm going to continue daily feedings as I'm baking at least once a week, but I hope closer to twice. My understanding is that daily feeding will help to strengthen my starter.
First - I now feed at night. So by the morning - 12 hours later - their smell is much nicer. This morning it was like sweet peaches. But tonight - 24 hours after the feed and before the next - it's back to smelling and looking (ALMOST) like there's a bit of clear hooch on the top. I now know - thanks to you - it's fine. But is that what everyone experiences after 24 hours, or could it be that my kitchen is a bit too warm?
Second, lets say I feed it tonight and put it in the fridge and not take it out for a week. At that point, I would feed it and leave it on the counter overnight, and then bake with it the next morning, re-feed it and put it back in the fridge for another week? Did I get that right?
Many thanks!!
Let's start with you taking it out of the fridge. Combine it with a slurry of flour and water. That is your "feeding". Make a little more than you will actually use in the bake. Make your dough and pour any surplus starter back into the storage jar and put it back in the fridge. You had one "feeding" too many in there.
Now please pose your other questions one at a time.
Thank you and OK.
How long should a starter be 'fed' daily to get to maximum strength and stability? I'm asking as my plan is to do so for about a month.
I ignore his levain builds. All I do is see how much levain is asked for and what ratio of starter to flours is used. Then I build up. No need to create swimming pools of the stuff.
If you ever find yourself with too much starter (although carefully managed this should never arise) then may I suggest sourdough pancakes? Yum!
Funny enough I was thinking just that!
If you are transferring the levain to another container, invariable some will be left behind unless you add all of the water to the levain to wash out the levain container.
I have been making 1/4 or 1/2 the levain depending on the formula. If I need 216 I use 1/4 and basically whatever I can scrape out of the container comes to 216 grams. That leaves behind 34 grams though it never seems like it is that much, to be honest.
It saves me from having to write out the levain formula but does wind up wasting some flour.
I started feeding my healthy starter daily on the counter and it turned acetic, Spelled like nail polish remover big time. Never had any hooch building up but I think I was chronically underfeeding because of the warm temperatures. This may have made my doughs stickier too, though that could also have been the result of warmer temperatures.
Anyway, you may need to feed 2x a day if you are in 75 degree weather. Or, at least, use fridge cold water for the feedings to keep things cooler.
!
DavidEsq.:
Do you have an opinion on the terms "starter" and "levain"? Please see the thread in "Advanced Topics".
That I'm not sure I agree with the consensus. I think a levain and starter are the same thing and the term can be used interchangeably.. but I'm a rookie.. so what do i know?!
Fermented flour and water Is referred to as "sourdough starter", "starter", "Levain" and "leaven"
It makes sense to distinguish starter from levain when one is maintaining a starter, when one is "starting" a levain. or when one has built a levain from starter and is ready to mix the dough.
This is more so if one uses a different blend of flours for their starter. Less so if one maintains a quart of starter at all times and uses 300 grams of it straight to mix the dough.
So, I call it a starter when using it to inoculate a larger portion of flour and water. And I call it a Levain when referring to that larger portion created from my starter.
for building a levain.. What ever the total amount of levain is needed just divide it by 15 if if you need 360 g / 15 = = 24 g That is how much starter you use. The first feeding is also 24 g each of flour and water making 72 g of levain after the first feeding. Let that sit 4 hours. The 2nd feeding is twice the first or 48 g each of flour and water giving you 168 g of levain. Let that sit for 4 hours and then feed it twice the 2nd feeding for the 3rd feeding or 96 g each of water and flour and let that sit until it doubles in volume, This makes a total of 360 g of levain the exact amount you need . This gives you the ability to change the temperature at each stage to bring pout any characteristics you wish should you choose and you are ensured that the levain is at its very peak for use in your bread. Don't tell anyone about the rule of 15's - it's our little secret.
If you don't want to maintain a starter and throw none away - ever .....and just store a little bit of it in the fridge for 12-16 weeks using a bit each week to build your levains as above, - search - The No Muss No Fuss Starter on this site,
Happy baking
Ok. That rule is on the verge of brilliant.. it make so much sense! Thanks for sharing. And don't worry, I won't tell anyone! Can a starter stay in the fridge too long? Does it get weaker there, even with say weekly feedings?
Having to feed the starter every four hours wouldn't fit very well into my busy schedule. I typically do builds in the morning and evening and am gone or sleeping in between. How best could the rule of 15 be adapted to such a schedule? Would it be a problem to push the intervals to say 8 hours?
IF you want to do one build to fit your schedule then feed 20 g of starter with 140 g each of flour and water to get to 360g of levain (or some combination that adds up to 360g) and wait for it to double as you do something else.
Since it so hot in AZ in the summer like now - yesterday I did a 3 stage build in 8 hours (2.3.and 3 hours each) It doubled perfectly after the 3rd feeding in 3 hours. The stiff rye starter amount had been refrigerated for 11 weeks.
Happy baking .
Unless I'm misunderstanding something, for the three-stage build to work its best you need fine control over the temperature, correct?
is what i use at the time. No control is needed. When it is warmer I just shorten the length of the stages Summer is 2.3.and 3 hours - total of 8 - winter is 4,4 and 4 hours total of 12.. heat just makes thing move faster and makes the levain have more LAB so the bread is more sour.
I came back to re-read your comments on this point and want to be clear. After the third feeding in your example of the rule of 15, with then 360 grams of levain immediately after the third feed. When is the optimal time to use that 360 grams: then and there after that third feed, or (what I suspect is correct) after it doubles, or in between those two points? Thanks!
levain doubles after the 3rd feeding then you use it in the dough for a sweet levin or you can do like i do, stir it down and put it in the ridge for 24 to 48 hours to bring out the sour and then use it.
No matter when you use it right before it goes in you can take 10 g of it add 10 g of flour and 5 g of water to it to thicken it up a bit and then refrigerate that for the seed for the levain for the next bake.
Happy baking
!
Hi Dabrownman.. I was just looking at this again for this weekend and wondered about your last comment. If I built this to say 360 as you say, wait for the double, then place in fridge.. I would then just take out, say, 24 grams when i wanted to build up a levain and wait until the total volume in my fridge went down to say 25 grams and then rebuild it and place it back in the friged.. Correct?
But as an additional thought, when "storing" levain in the fridge for long periods or a week at a time, you always feed, wait for a double, and ONLY then put it in the fridge? Is that correct?
And lastly because I don't know how to ask one question at a time(!), if i like my sourdough, NOT so sour, should I do more freequent feedings than your no-fuss-muss way?
In advance, THANK YOU!!
the entire 360 G amount at 100% hydration is being used in the dough. i refrigerate the just finished levain for 24 hours to bring out more sour. Then the whole amount goes into the dough the next day,
If you are making a starter for long term storage like me, you want to use whole rye and follow the instructions in the No Muss No Fuss starter below. I only build 120 g of that at the most, it is 66% hydration and stored for 16 weeks in the fridge with no maintenance at all. i take 10 -15 g of it every week to build a 3 stage levain for that weeks bake.
Happy baking
Good and helpful. I'm not into very sour, so would it make more sense to refrigerate for only 12 hours to get a "sweeter" bread? And I've noticed many using rye instead of white in their starters. What does that do to the taste of the final dough if anything? Or is it just about maintaining strength while in the fridge for so many weeks? Many thanks!
a levain over 3 stages is that you can make it as sweet or sour as you want by adjusting the flour, hydration and retard times. A liquid levain ,100% hydration, favors yeast reproduction as does 84 F. A stiff levain, 66%, and 92 F favors acetic acid production of the LAB making for more sour. 10 g of stiff rye starter haw 6 g of rye flour in it and 4 g of water. If you want a sweet levain feed it 10 g of white flour and 10 g of water and let it sit at 84 F. Then double the flour and water for the 2nd feeding and the 3rd feeding. You will have fed the 10 g of water 10,20 and 40 goof flour and the same amount of water making 150 g of sweet levain. Don't refrigerate it at all just use it immediately in the bred dough after it has doubled in volume after the 3rd feeding.
To make a sour levain just feed it rye flour instead of AP and keep it stiff for the first 2 feedings and then bring it up to 100% hydration for the 3rd feeding - all at 92 F. After it doubles after the 3rd feeding refrigerate it for 24-48 hours before using it in the dough. You end up with the same 150 g of starter but this one is very sour instead of sweet. Using whole wheat instead of rye will give you something in between.
Happy SD levain making
my starter is in the fridge at 100% white flour hydration. In that case I'd start your process above as 5g starter, 5g water at 84% and then continue with the the three feedings.. (so I'm actually doing 4 - the 5g of stater from the fridge with 5g of water to start off with, and then feed 10, 20, 40 per above). Always waiting for a double of volume before the next feed, correct? Sorry for the dumb questions.. just put "charlie" in the fridge this week and trying to better understand how to bring parts of him to life to bake each week..
And even though your no fuss no muss is drier, would it matter that i've done it with 100% dydration.. would I still be able to get 14-16 weeks of no fuss at that hydration?
Many thanks!
just take 10 g of your starter and feed it 10 g each of whole ye and water. 4 hours later feed it 20 g each whole rye and water. In 3 hours the starter should double and you are 100% hydration. The 3rd feeding is 40 g of whole rye flour and 15 of water to get the mix to 66% hydration. When this rises 25% then you can refrigerate it of 16 weeks using a bit each bake to make a levain.
The only thing to remember is that if your mix does not double in volume 4 hours after the 2nd feeding it is too weak. Just toss the 2nd feeding and redo the 2nd stage again until it does double in volume after 4 hours.
Do not try it at 100% hydration The wee beasties go nuts at high hydration and they will run out of food while in the fridge for 16 weeks. and make sure you use whole rye flour - freshly ground is best.
Happy no fussing and no mussing
I feel like I should courier you some freshly baked bread! You've been SO helpful!
Does the fact you use whole rye flour impart a flavour to the final bread?
Thank you (again)!
of white flour total and you use 10 g of stiff rye starter to build the levain using white flour. you end up with a total of 6 of rye out of the total 506 g or 1.19% of the flour is rye. I'm not good enough to notice any rye taste at all and i'm guessing you won't either. They bread will like be a bit more sour and flavorful though. David Snyder's San Joaquin is the best white bread ever in my book and it has 10% whole grains in it - half rye and half whole where.
The kind of bread you like is up to you My version of Davis'd recipe for white bread has 30-40% whole grains in it with half sprouted- a mix of whole: spelt, rye wheat and Kamut. i'm just think it tastes better and is more healthy for me. No big holes though!
Happy SD baking
Are you talking about "feeding" just prior to baking?
The way I do it is to make up my starter (the mixture that is added to the dough) from the stored levain 8 hours prior to making up the dough. The starter is then added to the dough and proofs for another 8 hours. I've tried shorter proofing times but the flavor just isn't there.
I'm not on board with the practice of feeding every day just to be feeding your starter and pouring it down the drain, unless you have an insatiable appetite for pancakes.
If your levain is making any bubbles at all or is somewhat frothy or smells of alcohol or has developed a layer of hooch or smells yeasty, it's ready to go. If you leave it for weeks in the fridge it will eventually exhaust its food supply and won't make any more hooch and won't get any "stronger".
I meant just maintaining the starter/levain/culture (not sure what I should call it, really).. that is stored in my jar on the counter. I was wondering if the starter gets "stronger" with feedings at room temp, vs sitting in the fridge for a long period of time. But then again, what does "stronger" mean anyway..
Thanks for your comments - always helpful!
to waste all that flour with counter maintenance.
This works great for me
No Muss No Fuss StarterI'm with dabrownman on this one. I bake every week or two and can't be "feeding" a starter every 8 hours every single day.
You're right!
One of my starters is the discarded remains of a previous levain build for a dough. In other words, I give a greater feeding to the starter during a build than that required by the formula, and whatever is left over goes into the next levain build. One can maintain a starter this way until at least the next ice age without ever refreshing their baseline starter again.
It can also be used as a base for feeding a different type of starter, for example building a rye sour starter, as I just recently did. BTW - also the same concept with that one applies. Build a stiff rye sour starter, use that to build a levain for a dough with a little more than necessary, and then Do It Again (without getting back Jack*). As long as you use the "discard" within a few weeks time, you should never have to do a starter refresh again.
alan
*no apologies to Steely Dan
For long-term storage I would suggest refrigeration. You do have to be vigilant about mold.
Your starter would come up to temp when you take the levain out of the fridge and make your starter with it during that proofing period I described.
I keep my Forkish and Tartine starters in small amounts in the fridge, and, when I plan to bake, activate them by feeding a few times before I plan to use them. Works really well for me, as described in Einkorn Hazelnut Levain - pinched, not kneaded.
Happy Baking,
Karin
@Karin, I am with you on that method
Keep my two starters (one white, one whole rye) in the fridge. I take them out, let them return to room temp, feed them some, remove what I want to bake with, and then it's straight back in the fridge. I might feed again before returning to the fridge, but otherwise that's pretty well much it.
Food waste, even when it comes to something like a starter, really does my head in...