I'm giving it all I've got
Planning a loaf to be baked tomorrow and just mixed the pre ferment of 200 grams AP bakers flour, 200 grams water and 1/4 tsp of yeast.
I plan an autolyse of the remaining dough flour and water for two hours of 260 grams AP bakers flour 130 grams water.
Now my questions?
Do I add the salt and sugar to the dough or can the salt and sugar go in for the autolysis?
When should I add flavour enhancers, in this case fennel and rosemary dried herbs (already soaked in water which I've used the 'tea' as the water in the preferment) in the preferment the autolysis or dough?
or should they just be sprinkled on the top?
A bulk ferment on the counter before shaping using a brotform for proofing it in the fridge over night.
How long should I bulk ferment for before shaping? with it going into the fridge for a long cool proofing.
I usually bulk ferment until doubled in bulk then shape and rise in the pan but not sure if I should do less with it going into the fridge for longer than I have as yet.
460 grams AP bakers flour
330 grams water, 72% hydration.
11/4 tsp salt
1 tbl sugar
is just flour and water no salt no preferment or levain - I do sprinkle the salt on top of it though so I don't forget it. No sugar is needed at all so don't put it in. Then the fennel and rosemary can go in during the first set of stretch and folds or the beginning of what ever dough development you are doing, I would just put it in the fridge after the dough development with no bulk ferment on the counter for an 8- 12 hour cold bulk ferment since you are using commercial yeast which will be much faster than SD, When you take it out let it warm up and hour then shape and let final proof .
Happy baking
There are those that say when using a levain that it can/should be included in the autolyse. Adding sugar, I have to agree with dabrownman.. just why? not needed. The salt on top is a nice "trick" too it does not affect the dough but pulls in a little water and dissolves and therefore mixes more easily.
autolyse, since he invented the term and defined it - water and flour only, no salt and no levain. The idea is to hydrate the flour and release the enzymes that break down the starch in the flour into sugars the yeast and LAB can metabolize. It is a head start to supp;y food for the levain which is to added later, Once levain or yeast is added, it is now fermenting not autoysing.
People try to change the meaning of words all the time to fit their on personal needs so they can say 'me too, me too' when it i advantageous for them to do so. Autolyse is a very simple thing, mixing flour and water, that doesn't need to be messed with in any way by anyone - but that doesn't stop people from doing so. The biggest offenders that sound the best are those that claim when the levain or preferment contains much of the water in the mix, then there isn't enough water to do a proper autolyse with the dough flour and remaining water only (too dry) and hydrate the flour properly unless the liquid levain is used as part of the autolyse, Fine with me and I understand that completely. i say go ahead and add the levain if you think it helps hydrate the dough flour - just don't call it an autolyse - because it isn't.
When people change the meaning of words is when no one can agree what the real meaning and what it really was supposed to be. It just causes confusion for everyone - especially the uniformed, when words no longer mean what they used to mean. We can't seem to leave well enough alone - even the simplest of words are not safe:-)
Happy baking
"The biggest offenders that sound the best are those that claim when the levain or preferment contains much of the water in the mix, then there isn't enough water to do a proper autolyse with the dough flour and remaining water only (too dry) and hydrate the flour properly unless the liquid levain is used as part of the autolyse"
which is why I planned well and made a 100% hydration pre ferment and still had enough flour and water for a 50% hydration autolysis, which I read is a good hydration for such, is this correct?
They're baked and cooling (I did a double batch), I have to have some patience now and let them cool before I hack into them but damn they smell good!
Ok thanks, i'll leave the sugar out and add the salt when I combine everything into the dough and fold the herbs in the first stretch and fold.
Bulk ferment in a bowl in the fridge, after that allow to warm,shape and into the brotform for final proof.
@dabrownman - I agree with the things you said about autolyse in general. But I am not so sure I agree with the idea that people who also include the levain are "changing the words". To your own point autolyse is for flour and water, but what is a levain but flour and water? I can see the rational as not such a big departure. Obviously salt and sugar are completely foreign compounds in comparison.
Bread Bakers Guild of America puts it this way: When using liquid preferments like poolish or liquid levain, their incorporation must happen at the beginning of the mixing process, even if an autolyse is done. Their low yeast content won’t really affect the strength of the dough.
At the same time there are those that do not think that the term is even that clear. Page 19 of Calvel's book "The Taste of Bread" states: “It would be wise, whatever the length and intensity of the mixing method used, to add the salt at the start of the mixing stage, or at the latest, 3 minutes after beginning the operation" - not sure how that plays into the whole concept.
In the end I say experiment. I have seen tests that say 20 minute autolyse is best and some that say 2 hours is pefect. I don't think any of it is conclusive because we are only talking about 1 or 2 variables out of many.
an exception to the general rule here. On page 10 of the 2nd edition there is a whole page on 'autolyse.' "The exceptions to this are when a liquid levain or a poolish is used. In these cases, the high percentage of overall dough water that is present i the pre-ferment is enough that, if the remaining flour and water were mixed without including the pre ferment there would be insufficient water to hydrate the flour; small pebbles of unhydrated flour would persist in the dough, right through to the end of the bake."
Thanks Alan, I couldn't find that information earlier.
do just about anything to rationalize their views on autolyse is born out with the idea that levain is nothing but flour and water - right? With that kind of logic - a field of grain ( flour in the rough ) that is being rained on - is really just a levain being autolysed:-)
Flour and water = Autolyse
Flour, water and levain is = Fermentation. It is really simple and easy enough for anyone who isn't trying to re-write the definitions of both for what ever reason......
I add everything in before the autolyze. Leave it for 20-30 minutes, give the dough a quick knead and that's that. For most of my overnight breads anyway. Not found much difference (other than ease) salt before or after. (ie. its easier adding it in before)
-Gordon
One was proofed in a brotform the other free form and the brotform one exploded out the side and had large open areas over the top.
My choice of flavours, fennel and rosemary, won't do them again! lend a slightly grey hue. Niether bloomed from the scoring?
the flavour was ok for grilled cheese but not sandwiches so still needing some bread for sandwiches for the week I did the same again overnight, without any additional flavours, just white bread.
I need to work on everything! but at least these are edible and I have lunches sorted.