Troubleshooting, starter, room temp or refrigerate?
I have been using the refrigerated method of storing and feeding my KAF starter. My bread never seems to rise as much as I think it should, is rather dense, small holes and rarely more than one or two large holes. I wonder if I kept it at room temperature, would that improve the bread?
I have used the KAF Rustic SD bread and the Norwich SD recipe and have had the same issues. I feed it at least once a week and bake every weekend, trying to get the desired results. If I chose to go to room temp, how often would I need to feed it?
I have been on the SD trail for about 5 months and have gotten a product close to what I want, but I have never gotten the sucess that I am looking for, less dense, holes, beautiful crust! Is that too much to ask for? LOL!!!
Thanks in advance, this is my first time to post as I am new to this site!Q
But doesn't affect how much it rises. Its how you use it in the recipe that is the main factor. Can I ask you to describe your method from taking it out of the fridge to oven. A brief example.
OK, so I want to bake on Sunday, I would take the starter out of the fridge on Saturday night around 8-9pm and remove 1 cup of starter, add in 1/2 cup water, then 1 cup flour (weighed out in ounces). I let the started sit in the sewing room with a small space heater to keep the room warm - 74 to 78 degrees.
Twelve hours later, the starter has more than doubled, I mix the bread following the Norwhich SD recipe, turning the dough out to an oiled shallow bowl for 2 1/2 hours, folding at 50 and 100 min. At this point the dough is then divided into two balls and rests for 15 min.
Next I shape into loaves and proof for 2- 2 1/2 hours before baking. Now a friend told me because my room is warm at 74-78, she said my proofing time should be cut in half. Any thoughts on my process or cutting the proofing in half?
I have a pan in the oven to create steam for the first 12 min in the oven sett at 475, but reduced to 450 once the bread has been placed in the oven, but I removed it after 12 min and continued to bake for another 10-15 min depending on how the bread looks. I am baking on a bread stone.
Nothing intrinsically wrong with how you keep your starter. Do I understand correctly that you remove 1 cup and feed the remainder with 1/2 cup water to 1 cup flour then when that has peaked you just take out what you need and return the rest to the fridge?
Well you always do one feed but can't harm to do 2 or more builds to strengthen your levain. I'll give you an idea of how I keep my starter and how I would prepare a levain for a recipe. The disclaimer... I'm not claiming this to be the best, nor the only, way to keep a starter however I find it is very easy to maintain, involves no discard and it is a good way to do a few builds.
Well firstly I keep a 100% hydration whole rye mother starter. I find whole rye starters very hardy and keeps well. At any one time i'll keep 90g - 150g and it lives in the fridge. When it comes to baking i'll take some off and do builds (or preferments) with the flour asked for in the recipe and to the correct hydration (if different to 100%). When the mother starter in the fridge runs low (never less than 1 tablespoon) i'll take it out, top it up by feeding it equal amounts of flour + water by weight, leave it at room temperature for a few hours and before it has peaked (estimate around about 1/3rd - 1/2 risen) i'll return it to the fridge and the process starts again. This way there's no discarding, no building too much and enables you to do two or more builds for a good strong levain. Whole rye hardly produces any hooch even with weeks between feeds. And because it can be a while between feeds (depending on how much you bake and use) then I think whole rye is a good way to go. My other white starter also does well it just needs a bit more TLC without so long between feeds so I don't keep too much at any one time.
For example: a recipe calls for 150g starter at 100% hydration so i'll do something along these lines (but you have many options here)...
24 hours before take out 10g and feed it 10g flour + 10g water
12 hours before feed the above 30g with 60g flour + 60g water
This way with each build I'm turning it into the correct flour and building up strength.
As for recipe and method you describe above it looks pretty sound to me. The only thing i'll say is watch that final proofing. If it is really warm then it will be less (but don't think by as much as half). Keep an eye on it and aim for 85-95% instead of doubled. I think check it at 1hr 45min and see if ready. If not, then again at 2 hours. At that temperature I don't think the full 2.5 hours but closer to the recommended 2 hours depending. No harm in starting to keep an eye on it a little while before and if you judge it to be ready then proceed onto baking. Perhaps a little trial and error here too.
Yes, you have my process correct, I remove 1 cup of the refrigerated starter and discard. I add 1/2 water followed by 1 cup flour and leave out to rise which takes about 12 hours in my warmed room. So, if I were to do two feeds, say one Friday night, then again Saturday night in order to bake on Sunday, would you just leave it out and not refigerate until I have removed the risen starter to be used in the recipe?
Thanks for your help, I am determined to make this work, but it certainly takes loads of patience!
How much levain is going into the recipe, what flour and hydration? I'll work out some ideas for you.
I'd also rethink about how you keep your starter in order not to have any discard. And until then don't throw away discard but use in pancakes.
OMG, that would be great!
450 g all purpose flour
60 g whole rye flour
300 g H2O
180 g starter
11.5 g salt
I look forward to hearing what you think!, Super excited!!!
There is no steadfast rule here. There are a number of ways to build the 180g levain. I will throw out some ideas for two builds, keeping both builds at a ratio of 1:1:1 or higher and aiming for you to start the actual recipe on Sunday Morning.
IDEA 1: Saturday morning take 10g starter and feed it 10g flour + 10g water
Saturday night feed the prepared 30g starter with 75g flour + 75g water
180g of starter ready for Sunday morning.
[the first build was 1:1:1 but the second build is slightly higher than 1:2:2. I have done it this way as if you did two builds of 1:1:1 then the 2nd build will peak quicker and you might not catch it at optimum time. This way it'll be good to go Sunday morning if you prepare it just before you go to bed]
IDEA 2: Saturday night take off 20g starter and feed it 20g flour + 20g water
Early Sunday morning feed the prepared 60g with 60g flour + 60g water
By early afternoon you'll have the 180g to proceed with in the recipe
[This is two builds of 1:1:1. The 2nd build will peak much quicker and if prepared early enough on Sunday morning you should be good to proceed onto the recipe early afternoon. If I remember correctly this recipe doesn't take too long - 2.5 hours Bulk Fermentation + 2.5 hours max for Final Proof, ready to bake Sunday evening. You can either bake Sunday evening or leave out for 20min after shaping then retard it overnight and bake it Monday morning straight from the fridge].
I remember having a discussion not too long ago about this recipe and was surprised it was all done with AP flour and had no strong bread flour in it. Well if that's the recipe then that is the recipe :)
Nothing much more to say except you're very safe following it precisely up until Final proofing. Then, at this critical stage, be careful not to overproof. Even though it says 2-2.5 hours for final proofing, I think start watching it carefully at 1.5 hours. Remember that a banneton spreads out at the top and what looks like doubled is more.
And for the final piece of advice. When you add and incorporate the salt give the dough a good 10-15min good old fashioned knead. Afterwards proceed exactly like the recipe with a fold at 50min and again at 100 minutes.
When shaping knock out larger holes but don't deflate completely. Enough to work with the dough. I always suggest watching youtube channels for ideas on shaping.
i will read this more in depth during my lunch break. Thank you for your quick response!!!!
I've read and re-read your plan and will be implementing plan 1 if not 2 in addition if time allows. I'm truly excited about the upcoming Sourdough Sunday!!! I will keep you posted!!!!! My husband is so looking forward to this too!
Which build did you go with and are you going to retard it it overnight in the fridge?
Did the builds look promising?
i just took it out of the oven and it rose, looks so beautiful! It's killing me to let it cool enough to cut into it!
i did build 1, started yesterday morning, fed it at 9 pm by this morning? It had more than doubled.
I tried the sink or float test. It looked ready but sank. I went with it anyway but the look of it. let it rise the final time just slightly shy of 2 hours. I altered the baking time to shorten it and it smells and looks heavenly!!
i need yo figure out how to attach a photo. I wI'll let you know once I cut it to check out the crumb!
Most difficult to wait till its cooled but worth it :)
I've never done a float test yet. Always gone by feel.
Will be in bed by the time you post a photo. Look forward to seeing it in the morning.
Cant wait, thanks for your help, now I have time to figure out how to post a pic and hopefully will have one uploaded when you wake in the morning. Good Night!!!
The float test is kind of silly if you ask me. Just the act of stirring the starter down knocks all the air bubbles out of the starter makes it sink. None of my starters have yet to pass the float test, but I have been able to bake bread just fine with them.
I had a friend swear by it and I have tried it. Sometimes it floated, other times not, but I have been trying all kinds of theories to gain success! I would be interested in hearing from others on the Float test,
Can you take off some starter and feed it 1:2:2 and put a rubber band at the level of the starter. Take a photo when it has peaked and how long it takes.
e.g. take of 30g and in a glass jar feed it 60g flour + 60g water.
Let's see how it responds.
If you have the time then you can take a photo at 4 hours and again at 8 hours. Or if you don't just when it peaks.
Just to give us an idea of how your starter is responding.
and feed it 10 g each of flour and water. 4 hours later feed it 20 g each of flour and water and then 4 hours later feed it 40 g each of flour and water. IF the starter can't double in volume in 4 hours it is weak and needs to be bulked up. To do this throw away 80 g (the 3rd feeding ) and redo it and see f the starter can double in 4 hours. IF it does you have the basis for a loaf of bread using half and feeding it the 3rd stage again and then feeding the other half again for storage in the fridge. IF you bake once a week you can throw half away and feed it and equal amount once and see if it doubles for use.
My guess is that it is just weak.
Doing a 3 stage build let you test your starter each time you use it to make sue that it ready to raise a loaf of bread but nit also lets you change flours, temperatures and hydration at each stage to bring out different flavors in the levain..
Happy baking
but rather, giving an insight of how a newbie handle things in the kitchen.
I personally find the float test to be reliable especially when one just acquire a starter. It is very much like knowing a stranger. It will at least take a few bakes for intance, before you could tell how your starter behaves. I did the float test during my early days of baking as I was very puzzled if my preferment was ready to go at that time. I just couldn't tell if my starter would be able to peak 3, 4 or 5 times of its original volume. So, I pull out my glass Pyrex measuring jar for my every bake. And so far, I only allow my starter to go up to 5 times and never beyond that. I am a careful and organised person but I am also multitasking at the same time. So having a rubber band to do the marking doesn't do much justice to me as I would somehow mess up the marking. And in that case, I rely solely on my measuring jar or the float test should I mess up again :)