1-2-3 Bulk fermentation
I've been lurking (much to my benefit) on these forums for a while, so I should thank you all for the wealth of advice and insight, but this is my first post.
Now that I've been working with sourdough (and my starter) with some success for a few months, I wanted to try the 1-2-3 sourdough that appears on so many boards here. My only point of hesitation was that I couldn't find discussion of the "process" beyond the formula. In other words, I had to wing it in terms of mixing/kneading/bulk fermentation/shaping/etc. So...I got fantastic flavor (nicely tangy), but my bulk fermentation overproofed a bit....it seemed to be progressing slowly, so I ran a couple errands and it went bezerk.
Can someone please tell me how you mix/knead and bulk ferment this dough? Here's what I did...
125g firm/mature starter (mine is around 50% hydration...all organic rye)
250g water
375g bread flour
8g salt
I mixed water, starter, flour...30 minute autolyze.
Then I added salt and mixed with dough hook 5 minutes. Rest 15 minutes. Mixed another 3 minutes until I reached windowpane.
Bulk fermentation (71 degree kitchen)...and here, between hours 4 and 5, the dough overproofed. Maybe I should do this overnight in the refrigerator?
Shaping...into bannetons. Second proof for around 90 minutes.
Baked in a cloche.
Result...great crust, extra tangy (which I like), but very little over spring and too tight a crumb (resulting, I assuming from the overproofing in the bulk fermentation).
Advice?
Your process seems fine to me. 4-6 hours for 123 formula shouldn't take it beyond the limit. Id look closer at the final proofing!
Perhaps 90minutes at 71 degrees is too much.
Try autolysing just the flour and water for 30 minutes.
Add levain and salt, incorporate and knead till full gluten formation.
Bulk-fermenting for 4 hours should be fine.
Shape and final proof but this time watch carefully and only proof till 90% (not doubled).
Or shape, leave out for 15 min then refrigerate overnight and bake straight from the fridge.
Thanks, Abe,
Maybe it was the final proof, but it looked super slack and bursting from the bowl between hours 4 and 5 of the bulk fermentation. I'll keep a closer eye on both stages next time.
Any advice on a no-knead version of the 1-2-3, process-wise?
Many thanks,
Bruce
Keep an eye on both stages, (but by autolysing without the levain, which is the proper way, you've shortened the fermentation process a tad), with particular emphasis on the final proofing. Even if you bulk ferment for 3 hours you will get a nice bread out of it.
Here is what I do...
1. Autolysing without salt nor levain will activate the gluten.
2. When forming the final dough after autolysing i'll knead for about 15 minutes to get good gluten formation
3. For the first 2 hours of bulk fermention i'll give it a fold every 30 minutes. I like the letter fold for high hydration doughs. Really helps!
4. Then i'll let it rest for the remainder.
I haven't done a no knead bread before but the above is my process. But I do have an idea for you...
Bulk ferment doing the above steps for 3 hours. Then for the 4th hour refrigerate. Then shape into banneton. This will make it a lot more easier to handle. You can then finish off at room temperature watching that final proofing or leave out for 20min (bit longer this time as it's been refrigerated already) then return to the fridge for overnight retard.
Best of luck Bruce.
On both counts. I'll give it another try later in the week. All best!
as do I and find there to be no effect on gluten development. Salt is clearly a no-no as it inhibits gluten but this is the first I've heard about not adding levain.
The pioneer of autolysing says that autolysing should be done with just flour + water. Other ingredients are added later including the levain.
While the subject of to autolyse with or without levain is a topic for discussion, I recommended not to incase the problem was over fermentation. Should you autolyse with the levain and, of course, without the salt (which controls the yeast) then this problem will be exaggerated.
I approached it from this way round as supposed to helping the gluten development which autolysing does anyways.
I am with you, I never heard of autolyze without the levain, I autolyze levain,flour and water and add the salt 30-60 minutes later.
I autolyze with salt.
Mix, leave and 20-30 minutes later it will pass a window-pane test without touching it further.
-Gordon
...I think Abe was just giving me a suggestion to slow down my rather active proofing...at least I've got a good, potent starter.
I just realized, too, that my math has been off because my starter is a true 50% hydration starter...super thick...all organic rye. I keep it this way for the sourness...which has really started to pay off. But that means, I think, that my dough has been more like 60% hydration (a little less, actually), so I'm going to increase the percentage of water to get it up to around 72%...hopefully that will help toward the end of a better, more open crumb.
But atleast it still came through on my email so I can repost it for you (always a good idea to copy your comment before saving it).
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thanks to you both
...I think Abe was just giving me a suggestion to slow down my rather active proofing...at least I've got a good, potent starter.
I just realized, too, that my math has been off because my starter is a true 50% hydration starter...super thick...all organic rye. I keep it this way for the sourness...which has really started to pay off. But that means, I think, that my dough has been more like 60% hydration (a little less, actually), so I'm going to increase the percentage of water to get it up to around 72%...hopefully that will help toward the end of a better, more open crumb.
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Exactly Bruce! This is what I was trying to convey.
Isn't the 1-2-3 method based on a 100% hydration starter? That could explain the tight crumb and over spring problem. 125g of a 50% hydration starter will be roughly 83g flour and 42g water, so adding another 41-42g (or mls - same thing) may improve things.
Yes...I tried to post this earlier, but the post came through as subject line only...
My starter is a true 50% rye starter, so my dough was likely something closer to 59% hydration....so I'm going to try increasing the water to get it up to 72%, and that should help a great deal.
Then the 123 recipe will always come out at 71% hydration.
Either make a preferment bringing it back to 100% or compensate when adding water.
I've also noticed that Hamelman has a relatively short bulk fermentation times for his Vermont Sourdough atleast. Perhaps he autolyses his dough without the salt for this very reason. To give the levain "uninhibited" time.
Hi Bruce
if you are doing a bulk fermentation that is not being disturbed by stretch and fold techniques it is reasonably easy to check for full fermentation, if the dough has deflated then it can be considered over matured.If the dough has doubled and in some cases almost tripled in size simply test by flouring your hand and inserting a couple of fingers into the mass if it holds that indent its perfect if it pushes back after extracting its still going. if it collapses it is just over ready.
If you are doing stretch and folds it is harder to judge but you can always pinch off say 100g and set aside as guide that you can check and test while the rest of the dough goes through the stretch and fold technique.
regards Derek