Croissant Dough RESISTING
I am having a big problem with croissant dough resisting while laminating. It seems no matter what recipe or ingredients I use my dough always starts resisting after the second single turn. The third turn becomes hard to complete and the final rolling becomes a nightmare. The end result are deformed croissants out of the oven where some of the layers separate excessively and tare off of the croissant.
The main recipe I am using: 500g Italian bread flour, 250g water, 100g butter, 50g sugar, 12g salt, 6g instant yeast. Out of this there is a 150g preferment that I make 8-9 hours in advance. The dough is Short mixed for 11 minutes at 1st speed (90rpm). This covers mixing and developing. Then the dough is bulk fermented for 1.5 to 2 hours and then spread over a tray and frozen for 30 minutes before being brought out for lamination with 270g of butter sheet.
In my testing I tired different recipes, changed to AP flour, eliminated bulk fermentation, and reduced mixing but with very little improvement in resistance. In most cases the end result dropped in quality. The last thing I tired was to use bottled Aquafina water with TDS 110, TH 53, and PH 7, but still no solution. What could be causing my dough to become too resistant after the second turn even though I give it a 30-60min rest after every turn and give it plenty of rest before the final rolling? I watch videos of others making croissant and their dough never shows the same level of resistance as my dough.
Thanks in advance
The objective is to have a strong dough at the end. Start by mixing at low speed just long enough to thoroughly get stuff together. In my DLX/Assistent, that's two to three minutes max and usually closer to two minutes. You won't have a creamy, smooth dough. Then increase the speed a bit and mix three minutes max. Then pat it into a rough square, cover and move to the fridge for two hours, up to overnight.
That will start you with an extensible dough that will strengthen as you go along.
cheers,
gary
p.s. Read and absorb TXfarmer's article on croissants. She puts it all together.
Thanks for the feedback. I read TXfarmers recipe and also read the source book she is using Advance Bread and Pastry. The mixing method I use is very similar to what you describe. I do 11 minutes at 90rpm which comes to [990] revolutions (for incorporation and development). That's a little less than what is recommended for short mixing.
I can try your recommendation which will come to [900] revolutions (3min@ 100rpm + 3min@ 200rpm) for incorporation and development, but I doubt it will make much difference. In fact, if you read Advanced Bread and Pastry description of the process the author recommends developing the dough to improved mix (4min @100rpm for incorporation and 5min @200rpm for development; 400+1000=1400rpm).
I suspect there is something else causing the resistance, that is why I tired using bottled water in fear that my tap water was too hard for example, but that proved false.
I am interested to ask you at what stage does your croissant dough starts resisting?
When reading Hamelman or Suas's books, remember that home and production bakeries have different circumstances. For Hamelman's take on a homemade croissant, see http://www.finecooking.com/recipes/classic-croissants.aspx and http://www.finecooking.com/articles/how-to-make-homemade-croissants.aspx?pg=0.
My DLX has a low speed of 40 rpm and a high speed of 190 rpm. I use the lowest speed for mixing; 2-3 minutes is sufficient. Then for kneading I estimate the medium-low speed at 60 to 80 rpm, and 3 minutes is plenty for a short mix. The Electrolux is best compared to a spiral mixer rather than the planetary action of the KA, etc.
You can cut the kneading a bit short because the four roll-outs will work the dough quite a bit. I remember my mom getting on me about working too slow when rolling out and folding biscuit dough. It wasn't kneaded at all, but not rolling it out with speed and confidence built plenty of gluten strength, making the biscuits chewy and "tough".
In my case, and I really apply the pressure when rolling to work the dough as little as possible, the first two folds are pretty good about not rebounding. The third fold sometimes requires a little extra stretching. The final roll-out is not that bad as I can over-do a bit and let it rebound to where I want it.
If it begins to fight you before you've rolled it out enough, don't force it. Fold it up and put it back in the fridge to relax for half an hour or so. Then unfold it and continue rolling.
cheers,
gary
I put your suggestion to the test yesterday, but it did not make an improvement. I combined the dough for 3 minutes at 1st speed and then kneaded for 1 minute at 2nd speed. I fermented the dough for 2 hours and proceeded with lamination after shaping the dough into the pan sheet and freezing it for 30 minutes.
Obviously a significant amount of kneading was removed (over 50%), but still the dough resisted by the middle of the second roll out. And by the end of the last roll out it was difficult. The croissants shrunk as they proofed and over expanded in the oven rupturing their shape in the front (see pictures below).
It's really hard to understand what is going on when I have done everything possible to reduce resistance. I have to point out though that in this batch I increased fluid content from 50% to 52% and used milk instead of water.
Sorry can you explain this part a little more? I dont understand it.
Note how I rolled the left piece to be thinner and longer (the triangles were cut the same size).
After 3 hours of proofing it shrunk back to where it looks like the normally shaped one on the right.
Over expanded and deformed shape
the interior is not bad
They look delicious. They don't look deformed to me. I prefer them with lots of volume and don't really mind the tips unfurling. They're lighter in texture. Are you looking for a compact classical shape? I think you have to roll them tightly but that might risk in losing volume.
I remember reading this entry where a professional baker produced some nice looking croissants, but they were asking for more volume: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/27072/croissant-journey
In that entry, they listed what hydration and butter percentages and what steps and methods they used.
There are two kinds of resistance I encounter during lamination: 1) butter becomes too cold and hard during rolling and 2) dough becomes too rubbery that it snaps back during rolling.
I work with a low hydration dough using all-purpose flour. I mix the ingredients by hand. I don't knead the dough much. I knead just enough to form a smooth ball of dough. I let the dough rest in the fridge for 10 minutes and then proceed to laminate.
I use the freezer to quickly chill the dough. It takes about 15 minutes to 30 minutes (depending on my freezer setting). I check to see if the dough is firm. I press down on the dough with the rolling pin across the dough to flatten the dough for easier rolling and roll the dough to 1/8" thickness during the first turn. I do three bookfolds which is probably excessive, but I prefer thin flaky sheets. I find that rolling it thin on the first turn is easier because the dough is easy to work with and the butter is chilled. The second and third turns tend to be more difficult to roll thinner because of too chilled butter and/or rubbery gluten development. In case that you roll a bit thicker during the second or third turn, you won't have the problem of thick butter layers pooling during baking because you had already rolled it thin on the first turn.
Since you rolled it thin during the first turn, the butter won't be turn so hard after chilling, so it makes for easier rolling. In case if the butter did harden, just allow it to rest at room temperature until the butter is malleable for easier rolling. In case if the butter softens, return it in the fridge for 30 minutes or even more to firm up the butter.
If the dough is rubbery that it snaps back, then allow it to rest in the fridge for 1 to 2 hours, or even more, for the gluten to relax.
After I cut the triangles, I find it helps to put the triangles on trays and have them chill in the fridge or freezer, so it's easier to shape. When I elongate the triangles, I find that they should have a bit of resistance or gluten when I stretch them. The triangles should feel a bit rubbery because that amount of gluten will allow the dough to expand. Whenever the triangles are too relaxed, I don't get much expansion. For triangles that are too relaxed, I returned them in the freezer. But you don't want triangles to be too rubbery to the point that they will tear when you elongate them. Sometimes I end up with triangles being torn because they ended up too rubbery, and I didn't allow them to rest.
Thankfully I don't face the butter resistance problem because I figured out how to deal with the butter slab including pounding the butter and warming it to the proper temperature before laminating. It's the dough resistance that is the problem. I have noticed that resting the triangles can reduce over expansion in the oven, but it doesn't remove it completely.
Hello,
I posted a few months ago about croissant results I was not happy with and since then, have practiced making them often. I am curious about using all water in the dough you described as most recipes I have tried are water in the preferment and milk in the final dough. I always assumed milk was used to make a richer dough that was more extensible? I imagine you have already ruled this out but it has peaked my interest.
When I was taught how to make croissants, it was always stressed not to let the dough rest more than 30-45 minutes between turns however, I am having much more success leaving at least an hour between each turn. Not sure if that helps in your case, but it has made a huge difference in my laminating. I also eliminated the bench rest as per TXfarmer's post and put the dough immediately in the fridge after mixing for at least 4 hours before laminating.
In my last test I used milk and did not notice any difference, the same goes for previous attempts. In fact, even the poolish I am using doesn't seem to be doing allot if I remember correctly. Following bread recipes I also noticed stretching and folding to be difficult compared to what I see in videos and book illustrations.
I can extend the rest period to 1 hour and see what that will do. I also hand mixed the last batch I did just so I can insure nothing was overdeveloped and since the dough temperature was 26C I placed in the fridge to bulk ferment.
Like some of the other comments, my take on this is that you are definitely doing everything right except the kneading. High snappy resistance is usually a result of over-kneading. No amount of resting gets you out of that problem.
As an alternative, how about kneading by hand? Just the once, to give yourself a feel for when the dough is ready. It starts sticky (very sticky), but, if you persevere, it comes together to form a beautiful silky ball. The windowpane test should reveal a beautiful gluten-rich membrane. Then, for your next batch, knead with your machine, stopping when you reach the dough consistency you got before.
It's almost impossible to over-knead by hand. And never forget the window-pane test. It's much more relevant than the rotation speed of stand mixers, water chemistry, and timings from a recipe book or blog post.
After so many attempts I think I agree with this. Once the dough is resisting hard no amount of resting will solve it, even over night resting.
I just kneaded my latest batch by hand. It will tear if I try to do a window pan test, so it's defiantly underdeveloped. Lets see how it works. I also increased fluid content to 53% and increased yeast by 30%. If this does not work, I have a feeling it is the additives in the flour or water that are stressing out the gluten and causing the excessive resistance.
..under-knead, you'll end up with flat croissants. It is really important to get it to that smooth, silky stage. Because the dough is enriched you won't get a huge, untorn membrane like white bread dough, but if you get one that stretches out with a tear or two, you're probably okay.
Good luck. Croissants are very tricky until you get them right, then easy after that.
Yes I agree, I skipped the fermenting step before and end up with flat bread like crumb croissants before. Getting that perfect development + fermentation combination right is so challenging especially with the ingredients I am using.
two other suggestions:
blend your bread flour with something softer
reduce/ the 2 hour fermentation, where gluten strength builds as it sits.
I tired AP flour before and the dough was still resisting and the croissants end up being flat so I continued using Itlaina imported bread flour (13% protein).
Regarding fermenting, that's what I did today. After kneading the dough by hand I checked the temperature and it was 26C, so I left the dough in the fridge to ferment. Correct me if I am wrong but the dough develops much slower at lower temperatures?
Lots of French bakers do a long cold overnight ferment. After all, the whole purpose of bulk fermenting is improve flavour (you've already got your gluten developed by kneading it). By chilling the dough, the yeast does not exhaust itself and the lactobacilli get to work improving flavour.
I honestly don't think it's your flour, water, or mixer rpms, just a matter of getting the kneading right. If you want to change something, then osmotolerant yeast gives you better results with sweet dough
True, most of the croissant recipes that do not use a preferment require overnight retarding to develop acidity and flavor. Since my recipe uses a poolish (30%) i bulk ferment it for 2 hours then lay out the dough on a sheet pan and freeze it for 30 minutes before enclosing the butter sheet and starting the lamination process.
Normally if the dough hits 26C after kneading I put it in the fridge right away to bulk ferment there. Otherwise if left in room temperature it can ferment too quickly.
..it's time in the freezer? I was taught the optimal target is about 9C for both butter and dough. And it works (for me anyway). Any lower and the dough is too stiff plus the butter starts shattering because its not pliable enough. Might that be the problem?
Before you start enclosing the butter sheet and laminating you put the dough in the freezer for 30 minutes to make it firm. This is especially helpful if you are using a wet recipe. Freezing for 30 minutes will make the dough strong enough to withstand the pressure of rolling without the butter breaking through.
I am curious to ask is it possible to test dough resistance by running a batch without laminating? I would just roll the dough to correct size and then fold and repeat the process as if I am laminating but without the butter. Would I be able to experiment without the butter sheet and judge the dough? If this is possible I would be able to do many experiments on the dough quality without having to make actual croissants and waist so much expensive butter.
It would be really interesting to know
Apologies if you know this already, but are you doing your turns with the absolute minimum of dusting flour? Also making sure no flour is folded inside the dough? I know it's unlikely, but I can imagine lots of flour incorporated at this stage could stiffen up the dough.
No I was not aware, I will have to watch how much I am putting. I will wight my flour dusting container before and after I finish dusting.It would be interesting to try going without dusting flour, it would improve taste too, right?
With the way I am working I can technically do the 3 turns without dropping a single spec of dusting flour because I am rolling the dough in a slab roller sandwiched between two clear plastic sheets. So there is absolutely no chance the dough can get stuck in the rollers. I just peel off the plastic sheets and continue rolling in the other direction.
FINALLY!!!!!!
Well the shape is great, but the technique I used to get it is not. I basically used a work around. After finishing the final roll out I cut the triangles and stacked them on a tray. Then I froze them for 2 hours and left them in the fridge over night. The next morning I shaped them, proofed for 3 hours and baked them.
The shape is good but it penalizes the crumb and is not a real solution. The dough is still difficult to work with. It's just that now I can get a decent final product.
In what way is the crumb inferior (I'm not sure it applies to a laminate that anyway)? What you're looking for is great spring, well defined layers and no doughy patches. Plus great taste. You won't find many better looking croissants than yours (if any at all).
I'm still baffled about why you had so much difficulty. Did you use 82% (or higher) fat butter?
Thanks for the complement. My croissants crumb in those picture doesn't look uniform. It's a bit tight and bread looking in the center. It need to be uniformly open like in those pictures:
Yes I used 82% butter, but the problem I faced was the dough shrinking back every time I try to roll it out after the second turn.
...even if you're using a bench roller.
Sorry about the delay in replying, it's been a busy couple of days. The plastic's a great idea as long as your dough doesn't stick to the sheets, tearing the laminate. Personally, I'd play safe and use some flour but brush carefully whilst making each turn.
The plastic sheets stick to the dough but I can pull them off very easily in the first and second turn. The third turn and onward is a different story, I have to dust some flour on the dough or the delicate layers will stick and tear. My main problem is not sticking, but it's when I pull the plastic off the dough shrinks. Sometime I roll the dough to 24" and after I pull the plastic off it shrinks back to 21" and so forth.
..flour? What's the protein percentage. Is it a Manitoba? They can produce very tough doughs.
The flour I am using now is Italian with 13% protein. It might contain Manitoba in it. Below is the product description:
I used Kuwait AP flour before (the best available in the region) and it gave me the same problem plus the crumb was more bread like, so I continued to the Italian flour.
...bag of doppio (00 ) and it's 13.4%. So, not very different. I use 13.2% bread flour for croissants.
I'm afraid that just about exhausts my suggestions, other than trying a different formula and seeing if the same thing happens. If it did, then it would most likely be an external factor like the rolling or temperature. As others have pointed out, by the third and fourth turns the dough does get progressively stiffer anyway, though losing one eighth is a lot.
I have to say that your croissants do look great. I can understand your drive for perfection, but I'd be proud to produce those and I don't think many would disagree, least of all your customers.
Thanks for all of your help. I did not start this thread until I tried almost everything to solve this problem including:
After reading your suggestion I also tried reducing dusting flower, but sadly nothing worked. That is why I started doubting weather it is related to the ingredients, not technique. I understand additives can have an effect on gluten. For example hard water can stress the gluten and make the dough less extensible. I just wonder which of the 6 main ingredients (flour, water, yeast, salt, sugar, and butter) can have an additive that can cause the dough to gradually shrink after being final rolled from 24" to 17!!!!!????
I guess I will have to research every single ingredient and it's effect on gluten.
It's normal for yeasted doughs to shrink back after rolling. It happens to me when I'm making pizza. I find that rolling tends to develop the gluten. Letting the dough relax and stretching the dough out seem to lessen the amount of the dough snapping back. I only do this during the shaping by letting the triangles relax and stretching them and then roll.
It's the proteins, glutenin and gliadin, in the flour plus the water that form gluten. I did a search about milk. Milk mixed with flour doesn't create much gluten as flour mixed with water. I also did a search on how fat affects gluten: http://www.exploratorium.edu/cooking/icooks/01-13-03.html Fat interferes with gluten development. I recall that in some recipes the dough contains a small amount butter. Butter is mixed with the flour first to coat the flour with butter and then the dough is formed.
As for a more open crumb at the center, I think the bottom edges of the triangles are trimmed off a tiny bit to get rid of the dough edge. The edges are doughy. When you cut off a small piece of the edge, you expose the butter layers. I believe during lamination, the top and bottom edges are trimmed off to expose the butter and not have excess dough entrapped in the lamination: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kC66iLTXen8
I don't trim off the edges because I have no idea what to do with the edges. I guess one can make laminated pastry sticks.
changing the room humidity.
What is the humidity of your work room? Sounds to me like the dough is drying out while working it. Could this be possible?
For a quick test, try putting up a high line or two over or near the work area and hang some clean wet but spun out towels or sheets on them. The moist air should then settle down and around the work area.
Great news, I finally sorted out this problem, and the culprit turned out none of what we thought, its the lamination butter! Previously I was putting the dough between turns for 50 minutes in fridge and 10 minutes in the freezer sandwiched between cooling gel pads. This was over cooling the dough and causing the butter lamination to shatter. Once that happens the dough starts to resist like crazy. Now I just leave it in the fridge the entire 1 hour before starting the rolling process. Another thing I did was to reduce the total fluid content from 54% to 52% as that was the maximum fluid content I could use before the dough becomes too soft and lose consistency to the harder butter. Thanks to everyone for their help in trying to solve this hurdle. Now for the next challenge how to make the croissants crunchy.
Some samples from my last attempt
Without re-reading the thread, I think someone had commented early on about over-chilling, specifically using the freezer. That's the trouble with long threads, though; it's hard to recall what has been said and left unsaid.
Either way, it's a Good Thing that you solved this issue.
cheers,
gary
I remember someone mentioning something about butter being a possible cause, but I looked for it before posting and could not find it.
EDIT, FOUND IT: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/comment/325439#comment-325439
Here is a picture of the crumb, much improved but can be better:
Those are perfect.
If you use butter with higher butterfat, like 82% or higher, the higher butterfat makes it easier to roll since it doesn't harden in the fridge or freezer. I used Plugra, which is a European-style butter in the states, and I couldn't believe how easy it was to roll. The butter was like clay- so easy to roll.
For a crispier flaky texture, I use water instead of milk.
Thanks, still not perfect but getting very close :)
I was given 2 samples of butter-sheet brands Elle Vire (84%) and Ancor (83%). I resisted trying them until I could get the best and most consistent results. I am going to try them soon, but I think I can push my super market bought butter Bridel 82% a little more.