April 26, 2015 - 3:51pm
room temperature vs cold fermentation
Greetings
In no-knead sourdough bread recipes, some call for 24h or more of cold fermentation, while others call for slow 12-18h fermenting in room temperature. I'm interested in a comparison between both methods, and how it affects flavor and texture of the bread. Please share your experience.
I also find that, in the case of cold fermentation, some recipes call for bulk fermentation, while others call for shaping the loafs in pans before putting them in the fridge. Is there a difference between bread made with each of those methods?
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There will be a difference in the flavour. A longer retarded bulk fermentation will be more sour then a shorter room temperature fermentation.
12-18 hours at room temperature will be very flavoursome anyways. As this is already a long bulk fermentation. I think there will be a difference but you'll find it more so when you change it from a 3-4 hours BF to a 12 hour + in the fridge.
I believe retarding the dough at different stages will also bring out different characteristics but I prefer in the final proofing stage as it helps with not over doing it.
kind. Some people mix it 50/50 with AP but I don't bother with AP anymore since wet dough was still sticking when proffing at room temperature.
What i have found between the two methods, Bulk ferment retard then shape and proof or bulk retard on the counter with a shaped retard is the the crumb is less open with the bulk ferment retard way. I think it has to do with the dough being handled for shaping a couple of hours before it hits the oven rather than the 12 - 16 hours it gets to sit in the fridge shaped the other way.
Here in AZ things happen very fast in the summer and I usually skip the bulk ferment on the counter completely and just shape it and pout it bagged in the fridge for 12 hours. Sometimes it still over proofs in the fridge while Lucy is sleeping:-) But the kitchen temperature has to be in the high 80's to skip the entire bulk ferment.
Happy Baking
I copied my post to my clipboard just in case this happens.
kind. Some people mix it 50/50 with AP but I don't bother with AP anymore since wet dough was still sticking when proofing at room temperature.
What i have found between the two methods, Bulk ferment retard then shape and proof or bulk retard on the counter with a shaped retard is the the crumb is less open with the bulk ferment retard way. I think it has to do with the dough being handled for shaping a couple of hours before it hits the oven rather than the 12 - 16 hours it gets to sit in the fridge shaped the other way.
Here in AZ things happen very fast in the summer and I usually skip the bulk ferment on the counter completely and just shape it and pout it bagged in the fridge for 12 hours. Sometimes it still over proofs in the fridge while Lucy is sleeping:-) But the kitchen temperature has to be in the high 80's to skip the entire bulk ferment.
Happy Baking
Is the best when it comes to coating the banneton. However I don't like the way it bakes in the oven. I prefer a bread dusted with normal flour for final results. But a dough that comes out of a banneton with rice flour is better than being coated with something else and it doesn't come out of the banneton at all.
But having said that it's just my own preference.
I like to very liberally dust my banneton with bread flour and then wait for gravity to do its work with a little help with tapping.
We don't have this problem of fermentation happening very fast in the UK.
has been the best for me. I have never had any dough stick to my bannetons - long cold fermentation or not.
After removing the dough from the bannetons I tap them upside down into the sink to get the surplus flour out.
After the bread has finished baking, I put the bannetons back into the switched-off oven to dry (and, just in case, to avoid any beasties from developing in our sub-tropical climate). By that time the oven temperatur would be low enough not to burn them. Of course, never do that with plastic baskets.
Next time I just add a little more millet flour using a shaker, distributing it around the bannetons evenly.
I buy millet flour in 500g packets; it lasts a very long time.
After about 10 bakes I use a hard brush to remove as much of the flour as possible and start again.
Works like a treat!
Gelatinous one is white rice flour?
dobie
Glutenous and Non Glutenous. Get the non glutenous..
Why do people hijack threads and turn them into a different topic? Why not start their own.
Most of the replies made here are not related to the question I asked in the starting post.
Hope you got some answers to work from.
Fermentation at different temperatures will produce different flavours. A warmer, and therefore quicker, will be a yeast fermentation.
A colder, therefore slower, will be bacterial.
Flavour comes from the fermentation. If longer then will be more sour.
Now one can start with less starter and ferment for longer at room temperature and get more flavour.
One can also have a larger amount of starter and then retard in the fridge which will slow it down and get more flavour.
You can experiment and see which you prefer.
Thank you so much.
You're right, the best thing is to experiment and see. Your reply gave me an incentive to try this today: I'll start 2 identical doughs, 75% hydration, except:
I think I will not knead or stretch and fold. I want to isolate one factor to be able to determine which is better for flavor.
For the sake of this experiment, should I ferment both shaped in tins, or bulk ferment then shape later?
With a recipe idea too.
I think the best way to compare is to make one big dough. Then after bulk fermentation divide them into two then retard one of them.
So same dough for both breads. One with a retard and the other with no retard.
One factor you will certainly confront is the room temperature fermentation will be a yeast active one and you risk overproofing if you are doing this following final shaping. You cannot have the same times for each. Flavor develops during retardation but the time needed is a minimum of 12 hours in my experience so you are not going to be able to have dough from the same lot sitting at room temperature for that period of time. I would not neglect proper mixing whether by machine or S&F as that will also impact things since you might not get proper gluten development. You also should keep the starter the same in both batches as that is a variable that has to be controlled.
I think the best way to do the experiment is to prepare enough starter for both loaves. For the retardation loaf, prepare it the day before the bake and put do the bulk fermentation in the refrigerator for at least 12 hours. Next morning prepare the second loaf that will be done at room temperature. You might have slightly different baking times but it will be close enough. this way the only variable you have is the cold retardation step.
is totally uncalled for.
A lot of times another subject comes up within a post on this forum and members are offering their friendly advice.
There is no need for this.
Why knead if the idea behind the no-knead dough is using only chemical action through long fermentation?
I've started a no-knead 75% hydration dough with 3% starter instead of my usual 30%, because it will be bulk fermented in room temperature. By this I want to prolong the fermentation time as close to 18h as can be. This is similar to Jim Lahey's no-knead recipe, excpet I'm using a starter instead of instant yeast.
I already have a loaf from yesterday's bake that was retarted in the fridge, so I can compare the flavor of both.
Of course I will not stick to the 18h rule. I'll keep watchign the dough, and when its ready I'll bake it. The problem with room temp. fermentation is that its not a constant factor like in the fridge. I just need to compare the flavors to decide which method I'll stick to.
I've baked it today, and it turned out very good. Used only 3% starter, based on total dough weight. It was fermented for 16 hours in room temperature. It more than tripled. (do you think I should wait less, so that it only doubles not triple in volume? I then shaped the loaf and left it to proof in the tin for 2 hours.
Do you think I'd better shape the loaf after mixing, before I leave it on the counter to long ferment?
to the flour? So it's easier for me to picture it.
Did you do both breads from the same dough and then split them?
If you didn't then it'd be difficult to compare and contrast as many variables can effect the final bread.
So talk me through recipe and procedure for the CF dough.
And recipe/procedure of room fermented dough.
Just so I'm clearer.
Ok, here goes:
My biggest fear was that the tiny amount of starter might not have enough bacteria to defend the dough from being invaded by bad unwanted bacteria during the 16 hours on the counter. This happens to me when I long ferment a dough using a tiny amount of instant yeast in room temp. The dough would smell bad, and I would through it away. But it seems that sourdough starters are tougher defenders than commercial yeast.
Well this is what has happened.
You used a very small amount of starter for your room temperature dough (5%) and a long fermentation to bring out a sour flavour. This is one way of doing it. Even though it's not retarded you brought out the flavour using less starter and fermenting for longer.
For your CF you used almost 50% starter. And while CF will normally bring out a more sour bread "relatively" (all other things being equal) but you have used far more starter.
If you had used EXACTLY the recipe for both and did one at room temperature and the other as a cold ferment the result would have been different.
We use the fridge to slow things down. But I imagine the CF and your room temperature fermentation weren't that much different.
For instance... If I bulk ferment the dough at room temperature for 6 hours and then final proof and bake then it'll be different if I bulk Fermented at room temperature for 6 hours and retarded in the fridge for a further 12 hours and then baked. That retarding in the fridge allowed me to stretch it out without going over the limit.
But you also stretched it out and bulk fermented for longer by reducing the amount of Starter and all at room temperature.
What do you think happens if I used the same tiny amount of starter for CF? I imagine I would then have to leave it perhaps 10 hours or so on the counter to double, no?
In order to fully appreciate what's going on stick to Four, Water, Salt and Yeast.
Keep it simple! Make one big dough and bulk ferment at room temperature. After bulk fermentation you split them into two equal parts. With one you shape and final proof at room temperature then bake.
With the other you shape and retard for 12 hours then bake. Only then can you compare.
Try this:
Pre-ferment: 28g starter + 204g water + 180g bread flour [12-14 hours before]
Recipe:
Flour: 980g [880g bread flour + 100g while rye flour]
Water: 534g
Salt: 19-20g
All of the Pre-Ferment
METHOD:
1. In dough bowl mix pre-ferment into water and add flour. Mix into rough dough, cover and rest for 30min.
2. Sprinkle salt on top and combine. Knead for 15 min.
3. Bulk ferment for 2hrs 30min doing a stretch and fold at 50min and 100min.
4. Split dough into two.
5. With one dough... shape into boule, place into banneton, leave out at room temperature for 20min and then refrigerate overnight. Bake straight from the fridge.
6. With the other dough... shape into boule, place into banneton and final proof at room temperature for 2-2.5 hours and then bake.
Compare!
You need to limit the variables as much as possible. You can get excellent oven spring from cold retarded dough as is evidenced by those of us who do bulk fermentations over night and then shape and proof the next morning for only a short period of time.
Thanks for the recipe. I think I'll stick with room temperature slow fermentation for a while. You see, because I bake daily now for my family, I look for less steps and less work.
Ultimately, I hope to be able to just mix, scrape into tin, cover in oven then start oven the next day. But I'm trying this one step less at a time.
Today I tried a new expriment. I mixed the starter directly into the final dough, without refereshing it first. If this worked, it would save me 5 hours and one less step plus less untesils to wash ;)
The starter was last fed the day before (exactly 28 hours ago). (my starter lives on the counter, not in the fridge). I think it's still active, because its a stiff starter (60% hydration) which makes the yeast eats slower. I thought, why spend 5 hours waiting for it to eat its usual 1:1:0.6 (starter:flour:water) meal, when it can be fed a much bigger meal, which is the final dough itself. That's a huge 1:20:12 meal. Same formula mentioned above.
I'll report the results tomorrow, when its ready to bake.
You feed a starter to build enough if you only keep a small amount. If you have enough then by all means it can go into the dough.
A preferment is good to build enough and/or to build with a different flour and/or a specified hydration.
Only difference is that a recently refreshed starter or mature build will be quicker. You might have to adjust timings. Watch the dough. But from the sound of things your starter is fed often so really won't be a problem. I keep little starter in the fridge so I always take from that and build plus it can be weeks between feeds.
As Alan explained, better than me, you won't appreciate the difference between cold and room fermentation unless you keep everything else the same.
My 10-year old nephew had some stomach trouble and felt like vomiting after eating my 3% starter bread today. Other people ate from it, with no complaint, but we know that kid's stomach is more sensitive. It seems that the starter was too little to defend the dough from being invaded by bad bacteria. But since I've already mixed the next dough, I thought I'd cut fermentation time to avoid giving time to anything bad to develop. In 7 hours it reached 50% volume increase, so I shaped, proofed in tin for 1 hour, then baked it.
I was surprised that the oven rise was huge. I read before that 50% increase in volume is optimal for oven rise, but this is the first time I actually do so and see it in action.
If there is any bad bacteria then starter wouldn't work. Plus a baked bread would have killed everything off even the yeasts.
A 3% starter sourdough with a very! long fermentation would make your bread very sour. Perhaps too sour for your nephew who might have a sensitive stomach. Or his being ill could be something else entirely (most probably). Perhaps he was just feeling under the weather.
I think you have to find a right balance here. You don't need to go too complicated with sourdough. Art is all in the fermentation. Too move forward I think you have to take a step back and go simple. See what works.
Hope your nephew is feeling better.
My nephew is better now, though it was a mild trouble, it lasted most of the day. Thanks for your good wishes.
Yes, I think you're right. After reading your reply, I searched the web and found many complaints from people having yeast or mold allergy, or sourdough sensitivity, even in this forum. Some call it "Sourdough stomachache", for example here, here , here, here and here.
It seem to happen more frequently to small kids. This is natural I guess, since kids stomach are not as tough as grown ups'. But even some grownups suffer from it too. It happened to my son too, years ago, and I completely abandoned starters at the time. I wrote about here.
When I used CF this problem didn't show up. There was no sour taste then, even though I use 10 times as much starter! Perhaps I should go back to CF.
My recent loaf which was RT fermented for only 7 hours, surprisingly has the same level of sour taste that I got from 16 hours of RT fermentation. I don't know why. 3% starter was used in both. If my nephew got stomach trouble from this 7-hour fermentation too, I'll definitely go back to CF.
"There was no sour taste then, even though I use 10 times as much starter!"
The "sourness" in the bread comes from the fermentation. So smaller amounts of starter with longer fermentation will make a more sour bread.
Larger amounts of starter with less fermentation time will make a more mellow bread.
Normally the CF will increase the fermentation time and therefore bring out more flavour. But your two doughs weren't done the same way and your room fermentation went on for very long as you only had 3% starter.
So you didn't take the same recipe and increase the fermentation time by retarding it. Rather you had a just as long, if not longer, room temperature fermentation by using a very small amount of starter. Making for a much more sour bread.
Do you mean I should try RT fermentation with 30% starter like the dough I CF? If so, it would probably reach 50% more volume (which I find optimal for oven rise) in just 2-3 hours. Would that be enough to develop flavor in the dough?
Try it that way and see if it has enough flavour.
With 30% starter you can get atleast 4-6 hours RT Bulk Fermentation if you wish for more flavour. There's a range!
Are you talking about the volume which it goes into the oven?
Bulk Fermentation you don't have to worry about that. After bulk fermentation (1st rise) you knock back down, shape and do a final rise.
Bulk Fermentation is an added step before the final proofing to develop flavour.
You're right, I should try different variations until I find a a good balance between flavor and safety. Today, I'll increase the starter from 3% to 10%, RTF. I'll also try skipping both bulk fermentation and shaping. I'll just mix the dough then scrape directly into floured tin, cover and put in oven, and when it reaches 50% rise I'll start the oven.
(How is sourdough percentage calculated? I calculate based on the flour in the starter compared to total recipe's flour. For example if I'm using 1000g flour, by 10% starter I mean 100g of the recipe's flour is used to refresh the starter, and the rest, 900g, is used in mixing the final dough. I find this way easier for me, since I refresh and use the discard in my final dough, both in one step. I make sure I maintain a quantity f starter that units exactly my daily starter requirement. For example, if I use 160g starter in my recipe, I maintain 60% hydration 100g of sarter, so that when I feed it equal amount of flour plus 60g water, I end up with 260g. Of that I take back 100g in the jar, which leaves me the exact 160g of starter needed for the dough. I made a little spreadsheet that makes all those calculations much easier, and adjusts water quantity automatically, taking into account the water in the starter. This solves the problem of different start hydrations, dough hydrations and starter percentages in different recipes. All is accounted for. Zero calculations from the baker's side)
always best to put in a pre-heated oven for best oven spring.
Bakers' percentages are always calculated to the flour in the recipe. Flour = 100%
For example:
500g flour
300g water
10g salt
100g starter [100% hydration - 50g flour + 50g water]
will be...
Flour 100%
Water 60%
Salt 2%
Starter 20%
But for final hydration you need to take into account the flour + water in the starter which will be:
550g flour AND 350g water = 64% hydration if the starter is 100% hydration
I always do that when baking pizza. But I tried starting cold and it worked better for me. Perhaps because I bake sandwich bread. I also keep the tin covered except only the last 10 minutes of baking. I look for fluffy and tender crumb. That's how my family like them.
I find that the method I use is more practical. But in baker's percentage, the starter would be 16.66% (150g for 900g of flour).
Today's bake was not very good. Oven rise was minimal. I let the dough ferment for only 4 hours directly in the tin. It seems that I should have allowed more time to develop. The taste was nice though. What's weird is that the crumb had huge hollow holes at some areas, while dense in other areas.
So up until now, for 1000g flour, I tried 480g starter, 50g starter and 150g starter. Tomorrow I'll try 150g starter again, as I feel I didn't do it justice last time. This time I'll RTBF, wait for 6-7 hours, until it reaches 50% volume increase, then divide, fold-shape, proof in tins for 1 hour and bake.
I'll report the results once I finish baking.
I've done this before, CF for 24h, 2 days, 3 days, and 5 days, but with instant yeast, before I start making and using my starter. (I've now completely abandoned IY). The flavor was good after 1 day, deep at day 2, deeper by days 3, but by day 5 it was too much sour.
I'm no longer interested in CF. My starter seems to work better in RT. Besides, its fun to watch your dough grow on the counter, in front of your eyes, it gives you a feeling that its a living creature, just like a house plant or a pet. I also like to give my dough a touch of sour. This seems to happen much faster in RT, instead of waiting for days to happen in CF. The taste I get in 7 hours in RT is better than the taste I get in 72 hours in the fridge. To me this is great, as I don't have to occupy a space in the fridge for dough any more. RT also allows for much larger patches of dough, in case I need to prepare for something big.