April 15, 2015 - 7:59am
Optimal time to use starter
I'm brand new to this site and sourdough baking and I'm wondering when is the best time to use my starter? Is it before/after feeding? Or when it has risen double or triple? Or is it when it begins to fall? Thanks…
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Feed it - yeasts eat, multiply, produce gas and starter bubbles up - starter peaks. When food runs out it begins to fall as the yeasts have run out of food.
So when your starter has peaked and just starts to fall then the yeasts need more food. So you feed them again but this time by using your starter in your dough.
so best time to use is when it has peaked and "just" started to fall.
This is perfect…why this tiny but critical tidbit is left out is surprising to me….thanks!
When your starter has peaked this is often called "active starter" or "mature starter".
The "active" or "mature" starter you use in your recipe becomes the "levain". It is the starter that leavens the dough.
If you take a little off your starter and then use it to build up enough levain for your recipe this is called a "pre-ferment".
Just some lingo for you. Will help when reading recipes.
I favour pre-ferments. Each time I take a little from my starter and build the levain.
When my "mother" starter (the starter you keep going indefinitely), which I keep in the fridge, runs low then i'll top it back up by feeding it.
Everyone has their own way of keeping and using their starter. I'll tell you mine and take idea/s from it if you find it helpful.
Mother starter lives in the fridge. Each time I bake i'll take a little of to build pre-ferments. When mother starter runs low then i'll take it out, bring it to room temperature and feed it. I'll allow it to feed by about 1/3rd and return it to the fridge at this stage because then it has plenty of food for reserves. Sometimes it can be a few weeks before mother starter is fed again depending on how much I build and bake.
[why can't I think to include everything in one message? Always remember something after I hit "send"]
I find that whole rye starters keep the best. Other flours need more TLC.
Thanks for explaining the terminology…it is daunting to learn new terms. Cookbooks assume I understand a lot when I don't and I have to keep reading, hoping it'll all comes together. ;) SInce I've only been making sourdough bread a couple of months, I mainly keep it on the counter and feed it every 12 hours or so….either baking or throwing out all but 1/2 cup. That does get to be a bit much…whew. I'm glad you explained about the Mother Starter…I can do that and take out what I need and build it up to bake. Can you tell me how much Mother Starter you keep on hand? And when you say you 'allow it to feed by 1/3' what does that mean? I think this would make my life simpler! Thank you so much! renee
If I take my starter, which hasn't been fed in quite a while, from the fridge and feed it 1:1:1 then I'll take around 12 hours, give or take depending on various factors, for it to feed, peak and begin to fall.
I don't wish to put my starter back into the fridge when its beginning to fall as that means its hungry again. Since it can be a while before I top it up I wish for there to be food left which it can munch on slowly in the fridge. So I estimate 1/3rd or a few hours and then place it back in the fridge.
Whole rye starters are great for this method. And if you aren't baking everyday then feeding it everyday is just wasteful and time consuming. This way there's no waste and less time consuming.
I've done it again!
I keep 90-150g ish. That's my topped up mother starter. When it gets down to around 10-20g (I eyeball this as I never know exactly how much I have at one time) then I'll give it a good feed of equal amounts flour+water by weight.
Until recently I've given it one feed and then back in the fridge. But in order to keep it strong I have started (when I can be bothered) to do it in 2 builds.
So first one might be 10g starter + 10g water + 10g flour and allow that to mature fully. Then the second build might be 30g starter + 30g water + 30g flour and then allow that to feed by 1/3rd.
Having said that my starter has done perfectly well the first way. Just an idea!
... and what works, works.
I make & sell bread every day and I have never once bothered with working out what an optimal time might be for making the dough from the starter. Some days I make the dough with starter directly from the fridge, and some days I use the starter in the fridge to make a bigger batch of starter (when I'm making more bread). About 5 hours seems about right for me. Today I made up some wheat based starter at about 4pm and I'll use it tonight, but I'll also be using some spelt based starter directly from the fridge. All breads will go in the oven tomorrow morning.
If you're making one special loaf and its got to be perfect, then you might want to check things, feed/discard/feed again, then make the dough, fold and stretch every 30 minutes, or whatever. I mix, let it do its thing, then shape/prove/bake...
And I seem to get away with it. My breads might not be award winning (but I've never applied for any awards!) but people keep buying them...
(incidentally, what this means is that I use the starters after I've fed them - sometimes 24 hours after and sometimes 5-6 hours after)
-Gordon
Thanks Gordon….it makes sense. I baked several days last week and noticed one of the days the loaves rose so much nicer than the other days. I wondered if it had to do with my timing. At what point is the starter primed…is it when it needs to eat or when it's full…. Since I keep starter on my counter and feed it every 12 hours or so…..I guess it's always ready. Thank you for your answer to my question….
You bake often and when you say you take straight from the fridge your starter is mature, was placed back in the fridge and used within optimum time.
I think when someone is learning they should learn to make the special loaf. One doesn't learn to make a "will do" loaf. What one does after that for their own needs is another matter.
Should one think they're doing the same as you i.e. pulling straight from the fridge, when in fact their starter does need refreshing, feeding and bringing to maturity then they won't even get a "will do" bread.
e.g. last Saturday. I took the starter from the fridge at 9am, use it to make up some dough. Left the dough until 2pm, shaped/prove/baked it and I was off to a party at 5pm with a big loaf of warm bread. For me, it was a special loaf because I used Khorasan flour rather than wholemeal wheat. And very tasty it was too.
Ever since my starter was working well I've done it that way. I only bulk it up when I don't have enough in the fridge to make the loaves I'm making. As far as I'm concerned, half a day in the fridge gives me starter that's more than ready.
On Monday morning, after a day off, I'll use it directly from the fridge (although now I almost always need to bulk it up as the shops are wanting more on Mondays now) I needed 600g starter for this evenings kneading, so I had to bulk that up - I started at 4pm this afternoon, now it's 9:40pm, 3 lots of dough are snoozing their way through the night and will be shaped/proved/baked tomorrow morning. (one lot used the spelt starter directly from the fridge, but it's khorasan flour)
When I go away for a week's break, I will come back and use it directly from the fridge. I do not "refresh" my starters. They "just work" for me. (Although I do admit the first loaves after I've been away for a week are a bit more sour than normal!)
People seem to like my bread and I had an enquiry yesterday from another shop who's tried my bread and want some...
What works, works...
-Gordon
Wow….Impressive baking schedule….I've so much to learn, goodnight, Gordon.
Not that I am consistent about this, but I agree that a ripe starter, optimal for a dough or a preferment, is five to eight hours after being fed. However, I have used starter out of the fridge and I've also put in starter only a couple of hours after feeding. Really, it's the timing that will differ. The ripe starter will work the fastest.
Now, if you want to play with the timing, experiment with starter amounts, refrigeration, and room temperature. With spring, I start to reduce the amount of starter I put into a dough or a preferment. That amount will go way down with toasty temperatures, even at night, during the sultry DC summers. (I think the heat is a way to scare off tourists after they descend on us all spring long.)
Good idea! I've only been using one recipe for the past two months to try and get it down and figure out what I'm doing. I think I'll take your advice and experiment ….and take notes! I'm going to begin by making my dough at the five hour mark this afternoon….and see how that 'rise' compares to what I made this morning…at the 'just beginning to fall' point…. renee
author of the recipe in question. One might specify a firm starter right out of the fridge, Another might specify a wet 'young' starter like Tartine with several refreshings or a small portion of huge levain build like Forkish or like many of Lucy's recipes a 3 stage - (4 hours each) levain build of progressively larger feedings where the built levain is retarded for 24-48 hours befioe being warmed up on the counter and used.There is no correct answer
Like many bread quandaries, there is no correct answer and too many opinions to matter much anyway. May methods work well.
Right now, I'm practicing with one simple recipe…several loaves a week. And learning to manage my starter rather than it managing me. It's a whole new world.
so many claimed to be the 'the right way'. But even more oppressive than the waste waste was being tied to the starters maintenance schedule and its hold over the freedom i expected and demanded in my life. That is why developed the No Muss No Fuss Starter. Now i am back to doing what i want.... when I want and no worries about anything bread at all - not ever!
No Muss No Fuss StarterHappy Baking
There are many ways, many different recipes and of course variations.
I say I feed my starter 1:1:1 when in reality I eyeball it. However when I explain how to feed a starter I'll say weigh it.
When someone asks how to make bread you'll explain how to follow a recipe. Yet you yourself might add a little water here and some flour there etc.
We could go round in circles explaining all the different variations and what works for me etc. But it is sound advice to add in active starter into your bread. When I say the optimum time to add your levain is when it peaks and just starts to fall I myself do not stand there with a tape measure and stopwatch. Often I'll see its been a while, it is clearly active and then use it. Sometimes I'll miss it peaking and just falling but I'll use it. When I explain a sound method I'll stick to peaking and just falling.
We want to optimise the chance of baking good bread. For this I explain how to optimise. Doesn't mean there's no freedom of expression. Otherwise most answers to most questions would be there is no answer. Pablo Picasso was a modernist. Yet what separates him from a lot of so called modern artists if today is that he could actually draw classically. The rest was his freedom of expression. Rather than someone who is a modernist because he can't draw.
I appreciate your responses today. I kinda figured that. I've been baking a while and cooking even longer and I know the difficulty of explaining recipes, when I cook by heart. It's something you feel. I'm an artist, too, so I appreciate the art example, too….:)
...whatever you learn from myself, or anyone else, you'll use to find your own unique way :)
Gnite and look forward to seeing your sourdoughs.
so much so that I took my starters both wheat and rye out of the fridge, fed them, left them out until I saw a few bubbles start and then threw them back in the fridge. I'm going to see how they are tomorrow.
Meanwhile I also started a preferment about 4 hours ago and just gave it a a second build. Its in the proofing box and is also show a bubble or two so will see where that leads in an hour because then I'm going to throw together a batch of dough and bulk ferment it in the fridge. No heavy grains, just wheat and bread flour. Wish me luck.
I found another place to lose some loaves so I can bake again ;-D
Adventures…I do wish you well in your latest baking adventure…..keep us posted….
the baker to follow and,f the baker wants to make a bread like the author made,they have to follow the recipe and those methods. I always follow what Lucy says to do, since those are the only recipes I use, at least the first time since I need a reliable example to have under my belt. Then I can mess with the recipe to develop a better bread.in some way - taste especially. Peaked, fallen, flat or domed, whole grain or white, wet or stiff retarded or not young or old etc ....all have a different effect on the bread .
There never is a right way, when it comes to starters or anything else when it comes to bread, except for the first time when you follow the recipe as the author wrote it down. After that - all bets are off. That is how we get better breads than the one the author thought they invented.
Happy Baking
Thank y'all for all the great info and responses today Day one and I feel so welcomed...….One last question then I must go to bed…..who/what is Lucy? :)
Lucy is more than a 4 legged "sage of the south." She's the queen of the kitchen and Dabrownman is her servant. She also has magical
barkingbaking powers. :)Ahhhh,, interesting….
Lucy is my German Baking Apprentice 2nd class for nearly 11 years now. She comes up with all the recipes for bread we bake every Friday. She is stuck on sprouted grain bread right now for some reason. here is a picture
She looks very alert…like she's got some advice for me…. tell her I'm listening…or does she read, too?
but really she only knows 62.37% :-) Ask away, she will do her best to help give a lessened understanding to any topic that crops up :-)
Happy baking
...bark once if non mature Starter is good for baking bread or twice if mature fed Starter is the optimal time for using in your recipe".
"Woof, woof, woof"
And so the debate continues!
Thanks , Luc….Least I'm not the only one confused……...
She looks so lovely dabrownman, I want to cuddle her.
She does not at all look 11 years old.
I have 2 Aprentices or better, I have 2 bread taster:)
Ben my golden labrador who is 9 years old and Eddie my red merle Border Collie who is 5.
They test for the quality of the bread so they alwyas get the first cut of the bread and if they think it is yummy , we are allowed to eat. lol
Doxie Baking Apprentice, who only lived to 13 she seems way better physically. For years I used to walk her 4 miles a day when i was trying to lose 70 pounds and get back in shape and I think that made a big difference. Poor thing had to trot pretty fast with those short legs to keep up with an 18 minute mile. I think she looks guilty in the picture though? She is known to jump from the back of the love seat, to the kitchen pass through counter top and then eat everything she can find no matter how much it is.
Nothing like a few baking apprentices that know bread well enough to be accredited taste testers as well as baking apprentices.
She's beautiful. What breed is she? And how big? She reminds me of a gold version of my black Toby , who's a mutt.
Oh sorry, i just read your last post. A doxie
If I wish to build 90g of starter and I pull 10g from the fridge which hasn't been fed for a while and then feed it 1:1:1 it'll take 10-12 hours to wake up, feed and mature.
Then if I feed this mature 30g of starter the same ratio of 1:1:1, to get the 90g for the levain, it'll take 4-5 hours.
This is the reason for optimal time to use a starter. We make the starter work for us and not the other way round.
Should I take 90g of starter from the fridge which was fed 2 weeks ago and use that straight in the recipe then I'm sure it'll make bread eventually. But then I'm at mercy of the starter and to be sure the end result will be different. When we bake we have a result in mind not "i'll be happy with whatever it produces". You work towards something and this means we make the starter work for us.
If you have all day to bake, no time limits etc. Then by all means start a bread in the morning and hang around waiting for whenever the starter has done it's job. If you have a goal, time limit, a finished product in mind etc, then there is a correct way to go about it.
You can activate your starter and then choose to slow it down by retarding it in the fridge. Again you are the one in charge manipulating the result. And then there is a starter that has been kept in the fridge will be more bacterial and when you do your builds outside of the fridge you will be increasing the yeasts within your starter. Again another way you are taking control of the results you want.
But to say it's garbage in an attempt at inverted snobbery is simply wrong.
Using a non mature starter in a dough only to find out it's going through a bit of a sluggish period and needs some TLC is going to result in a lot of wastage. When you build a levain to maturity you are also ensuring the health of your starter. Everyone can go through a period of their starter acting up a little. You don't want to find out after having made enough dough to sink a battleship only to find out that's all it can do.
but just realized i'm prepping my starter differently before using it. i take it out of the fridge and let it bubble till it's active- without feeding it first. i feed what's left of the starter, let it bubble and then back to the fridge.
my breads turn out ok but i wonder how might not feeding the satrter before using it affect them..
e.g. just look at what I do. If that works for you, then keep doing it is my suggestion...
Ask 12 bakers - get 13 answers ...
-Gordon
And I do it different then that as well. I keep a stiff starter in the fridge, when I want to use it I add enough water to make it into a thick batter, let it sit on the counter for 8 or so hours, discard half add flour and water in equal volume measure, let sit over night, now I use 3/4 of that and half the flour along with all the water of my bread recipe and let it sit all day. When I come home I make the dough for the bread and it is in the fridge for final proof before I go to bed. Either bake the next morning or that evening. This has evolved over a number of years of trying to fit bread to my schedule rather than fitting my schedule to the bread. What I like about doing it this way is that it gives predictable results and fresh bread always tastes good even it the journey to that fresh bread varies from individual to individual.
Gerhard
I agree with Gordon, ask 12 bakers and get 13 answers :)
I know how it is when one first on the sourdough road, it took me several failed attempts until I had my starter * who will be 2 years on the 11th of May *.
My starter gone through man changes, he started as wheat starter, changed to wholemeal starter, to rye starter, to a mix of wheat and wholemeal starter and back to where he started as wheat starter.
From 100% hydration to 50% hydration to now 80% hydration and I dare say it was the last change.
I have 20g of the very first original starter in a little jar in the fridge and I feed it every few weeks.
I have a dough in the fridge proofing that will be baked straight from the fridge in 5 minutes, if it is not sour enough it will be back to the 50% hydration starter which needs kneading and I really do not like that kneading. lol
In time you develop your preferences in the starter you want to use and how you want to store it and how you want to use it.
Have fun baking.
Petra
do you ever get bubbles or does it just rise like a proofing loaf? Just curious since I've never tried one.
I have two starters, one wheat...started last October and a rye started end of March this year but both are more like a thick batter and remain healthy even with sporadic feedings. My husband refers to them as my pets.
When I need a starter I take a little, sometimes from each, and feed that for whatever bread I'm making.
Thanks,
Wendy
If one does a preferment or has fed a starter to build up enough for a recipe then you should wait till it is fully inoculated before using in a recipe. So peaking would be the optimal time.
Should one keep enough starter at any one time, has no need to build a preferement or create more starter, and their starter has previously been fed (therefore inoculated) then perfectly ok to use straight in a recipe. Although timings may differ between these two ways.
A preferement allows one to build to a specification so even if you have enough, but a recipe asks for a different flour or hydration, then one needs to build and therefore wait for optimal time.
Thank you all for helping me get this clear. Sorry Gordon and Dabrownman.