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what did I do wrong

mickeyk44's picture

what did I do wrong

  baking sour dough Larry( (that is the sour dough I bough off e bay) floated when I put some in water so I thought it was ready to go
this is the recipe  I used 

77g starter
26g rye
193g white
4-5g oil
4-5g salt
150g water
teaspoon caraway seeds

 I used the no kneed method I proofed for 6 hours at room temp then in the refrigerator for 8 hours (over nite ) the proofed for 2 more hours at room temp
I then stretched and folded and shaped into a ball
 I let rest for 10 minutes then then put in a bowl and let proof for 45 minutes  it had a slow recovery when pocked so I baked it in a dutch oven , 20 minutes at 525f with the lid on   , the 10 minutes  at 425 with lid off the inside temp was then 207f so I took it out
 and let cool for 45 minutes and these are the pictures when I cut it  
 the bottom crust is perfict , the top needs to be a drop harder and darker , it was a little chewy (maybe doughy ) inside
 tasted great , how do I get it to raise more , it did not double during proofing but had a ton of oven spring

pmccool's picture

First, thanks for all of the information that you did provide about recipe and process.  That's a great start.  Questions that I'm still curious about include:

What was the hydration of the starter?

What was the room temperature, approximately?

Did the shaped dough hold its shape?  Or did it turn from a ball into a pancake somewhere along the line?

When you say it had a slow recovery when pocked, I presume you mean poked, as in the poke test.  I would imagine that it did.  A bread made with bakers yeast may not have been ready to bake 55 minutes after shaping, depending on room temperature.  A sourdough bread would almost certainly not have been ready for baking.  Wild yeasts grow much more slowly than commercial yeasts.  My guess is that the dough had only begun to reinflate after shaping and may have needed another hour or more before being ready to bake; again, depending on temperature.

Looking forward to hearing your answers to get a better understanding of what you were dealing with.


nmygarden's picture

Can you tell us how the dough responded to the bulk fermentation - did it rise in its container and get airy? Has your starter demonstrated that it's active? Oven spring - did it puff up then collapse? Doesn't really look as though... My thoughts include:

35% starter is a fairly high amount for such a long fermentation. If the dough overfermented during that time, you may have noticed significant deflation when you shaped it. A 45 minute final proofing wouldn't have allowed for it to recover lost structure. Does this sound consistent?

Based on your comments and the pic, I'd suggest either the starter wasn't yet active enough, or the dough overproofed - kind of both ends of the spectrum...




mickeyk44's picture

its a new starter ,just a week old and does not double when feed but bubbles alot and I find liquid on top ever morning ,

I made it thicker ( more flour than water the morning before using it , 6 hours latter )

the dough was a little watery so I added more flour 3 hours into proofing ( 1st proof 6 hours at 65f , 8 hours in frig 2 hours at 65f)

 after shaping it mostly keep its shape

 guess it need to proof it longer in the 2 nd proofing

 also I forgot to score the top of the dough before baking and opened the dutch oven and scored it after 5 minutes

 I put a teas spoon of water into the dutch oven when it put the dough in to make more steam

 guess its a good first try I will try making the 2nd proof 2 hours next time

 I was told by the person I got the starter from to try proofing the 2 nd proof a 100f  and that it doesnt not raise a lot

 It doubled in size while baking and I did not see any sigh of collapse 

nmygarden's picture

Sorry, the story of my life is to ask loads of questions, just ask my colleagues.

So, it was a work in progress with minor interventions (it's okay, we've all done it and it's part of how we learn). Can you tell us a bit more about how the dough was developed? No Knead, okay, but some stretch and folds or other manipulation to help develop gluten? The extra flour that was added is included in the quantities shown above? The white flour was all-purpose? Do you know the protein content?

I'm thinking 100F is not necessary (and hard to regulate), but maybe more time at room temp.


mickeyk44's picture

the extra flour was not counted , it was like 2 table spoons

 it was mostly no kneed , I kneaded it for 1 minute to mix in all the ingredients

 I stretch and folded it , and shaped it between 1 sr and 2 nd proof

 the flour was ao unbleached don't know the brand , bought it loose in the supermarket

 the rye was bob whole grain dark rye

 I think I need to do a 2 hour 2nd proof  and also build up my starter it is only 1 week old and was eating all its flour everyday  for the first 4 days , , I think I was giving it to much water , I was using 1/4 cup flour and 1/4 cup water now Im using 1/2 flour and around 1/3 cup water , maybe I need to weight it instead

mickeyk44's picture

I think my started was not ready , today I feed it 100 gm water 100 gm ap flours after spilling half the starter out

 ( before I was using 1/2 cup water and 1/2 cup flour ) it is in a pint and a half spring crock , and for the first time it raised and more than doubled , it overflowed the crock

 maybe it was not ready to bake with before < I will try again this week end

10 hour room temp proof , and 2 hour second proof ( i'll watch the second proof and bake it when it doubles )

nmygarden's picture

provides a basis for consistency. Especially as we're getting 'the hang' of this new activity, it helps to eliminate some variables and keep things as simple as possible.

Prior to (or during the process of) shaping, try to avoid being too vigorous with the stretch and folds. It's one thing to tighten up the gluten if it's relaxed too much or to redistribute some gas bubbles, but we don't want to deflate the dough entirely, those bubbles are a good thing. Looking forward to seeing your progress!


mickeyk44's picture

doubled the recipe

 did a 171/2 hour first proof

stretch and fold then shape

 6 hours in the refrigerator 1/2 hours at 70f

 then baked in aluminum dutch oven

preheated to 550f, put in oven and spilled a few tablespoons on water into dutch oven for more steam , lowered head to 450f 20 with lid on

 took lid off 10 minutes  at 380f with lid off

 the crust is a little soft and its a little doughy , but the bread temp was 203f when I removed it 

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mickeyk44's picture

I meant 1 1/2 hours at 70f for second proof

mickeyk44's picture


the dough hit the side of the dutch oven when I put it in and got stuck against it when I removed it
  • DSC07970.JPG
nmygarden's picture

Are you happier with this one? Looks breadier!

You can avoid the sticking issue by placing your proofed dough on a piece of parchment and lowering it into your DO. I find that when baked a bit longer, the crust will tend to un-stick more easily. Judging by the color, I think you could bake longer for deeper color, even leaving it in the oven for an additional 5 minutes once you've turned it off and left the door ajar will help crisp the crust, though the oil in your formula will tend to soften...

Looking better, keep it up!


mickeyk44's picture

switched to whole wheat and rye instead of ap and rye

let it raise overnight 18 hours after a little kneading more like  6-8 stretch and folds   every 2 hours for like 5 times today I just did a stretch and fold and shaped it into a ball it is now resting and will be put in a sprayed floured bowl and 2 hours in the frig and 2 hours proof and into the oven I think after  I pre heat the oven I will to 525f I will lower the temp to 425 for 20 minutes with the lid on then lower to 380f for like 10 minutes til its nice and brown maybe a little hotter inside than the 2o5 last time maybe 210 f it will up date this after I bake it this afternoon