Did I over-knead my starter?
Greetings
After years of failures, for the first time I have succeeded in developing a sourdough culture. I started it 5 days ago. Here is the formula that I'm following:
Day 1:
- 40g plain yogurt
- 40g flour
Day 2:
- leave it as is for another 24h
Day 3~16:
- 40g dough
- 40g flour
- 20g water
I'm using pizza white flour and distilled water for the daily feedings. It should be ready for baking with after 16 days. I leave my dough in a covered glass jar in room temperature (about 25c), except the first 2 days, where I kept the jar in a slightly warm spot, on top of the fridge, near the rear black mesh.
After the first 48h, the dough more than doubled.
In day 3, 9h after the first feeding, it reached 4 times its volume, and a beautiful fragrance started to develop, like blue cheese
In day 4, 9h after the second feeding, it reached a giant 6 times its volume! and the smell was even better
But today, day 5, 12h after the third feeding, nothing happened. It just did not rise at all. The smell faded a bit, but still a trace of the same fragrance.
I wonder what I did wrong. After mixing the food, I usually knead it on the counter before returning it to my glass jar. But perhaps last night, I kneaded too much. Does vigorous over kneading at the time of feeding harm the culture somehow?
I feel so worried.. did I kill my baby bacteria?
I just stir my starter until the new flour and water is incorporated. It is not a kneadable density. Perhaps you should increase the hydration level of your starter. I don't think vigorous kneading would kill bacteria or yeast….they're very resilient little critters. The yeast activity in your starter may be leveling off after such rapid initial growth.
is not the usual way since the LAB in yogurt aren't the ones you want to take over. Normally on day 5 the culture will look dead as the first LAB to take over and be vigorous bad ones that need to be replaced by the good ones. Usually by day 7 the good ones have taken over and are starting to get more active and the ones that are not acid tolerant have been replaced. Since you started with an acid environment and the wrong LAB who knows what will happen over time. The good LAB andyeast might take over eventually
That's great to know. It is exactly what happened.
I'm not worried about that. The LAB in yogurt is intended to only protect the dough in its infancy from being infested by bad bacteria, similar to the effect or pineapple juice, grapes or any acid environment. But using yogurt gives the dough a fantastic fragrance. A bit like blue cheese. You should try it some time. Eventually, wild yeast will develop and take over.
You make it sound appealing, but I'd guess that the yogurt is unnecessary. A well-kept starter shouldn't need "protecting" in the early days.
My understanding is that the wild yeast doesn't come from the air so much as it does from the ingredients you add. So it seems that starting with grapes and/or just using a fresh rye flour are all you need. I've only done the latter myself.
As far as kneading the starter itself, I haven't heard of that. For one thing it seems starter is generally kept too wet for that. If I tried kneading mine, it would just make a mess. And for another, I'd think gluten development in the starter is not the goal, and may be counter-productive. Kneadable starters might work ok, although I would expect the mixing process to be a bit harder, particularly in case a good gluten structure has been developed.
Does kneading the starter harm the organisms? I doubt it, given everything else they put up with.
When it comes to this sourdough stuff, I don't see any two people doing things the same way. So I guess you just have to figure out what works for you.
is with a stiff mix. Joe Ortiz took this and converted it over to his bit of milk and cumin method he made famous on Julia Child's Master's show. You can see a great video of Joe making his 3 day chef on YouTube where he incorrectly states the wee beasties come from the air instead of the flour. Making a starter from a stiff mix (50-70% hydration) isn't uncommon and equals the hydration of bagels to bread. The kneading is easy enough at those hydration levels - no worries.
We might use wetter methods with a bit of acid now but it is hard to beat the 3 day time frame and making bread on day 4 that Joe uses. it is the fastest way to SD bread I have used. Mini Oven's (not really hers and not so ancient either), 60% hydration WW golf ball dropped dropped into and bed of white flour in a brown bag and sealed shut, kept on top of the fridge for 7 days, is the pretty fast too - but another lower hydration method example.
I also knead my 'o Muss No Fuss' rye starter kept in the fridge for 3-4 months or more with no maintenance at 66% hydration.
Happy Baking
Thanks for this info. Its fascinating. Did you try it yourself?
Since I read your comment and watched his video, I decided to try it. I'll start a separate topic for it.
I had that happen too (twice) with Maggie Glezer's firm starter. I had been feeding it white flour...and it is supposed to be firm so three tbsp water, 2 oz starter and 3 oz flour. I think it was too dry...anyway this time I gave it another shot, using twice as much water and half white and half rye flour and miraculously it surged back to life.
That starter uses just flour and water...i guess whatever yeasts are on the wheat.
My understanding is the first "bloom" of new starter is due to the yeasts common in cheese or beer. They die off after about 4 days, the starter goes dormant while the sourdough starter yeasts start to grow and multiply.
You can simply add a small amount (1/2 teaspoon) of vinegar to create the same acidic environment as you are doing with the yogutrt, tho I have found that entirely unnecessary. After the initial mixing of flour and filtered water, once the sourdough culture develops in the 5th to 7th day, tossing 1/2 and then feeding 1:1:1 (starter:flour:water, all by weight) every 12 hours will give you a great starter.
You can do this with as little as 20g-30g of flour and water. There is no need to use copious amounts of flour as some starter recipes suggest. It is just a waste of flour and money.
Have fun!
I converted my 100% hydration starter to a 50% hydration starter , that is what you have , and though I did not use jogurt you see a big rise in stiffer starter, they kind of have a dome and do not have those bubbles as a 100% hydration starter has.
You are fine with the kneading, I knead mine until soft and smooth and put it back in the jar.
When I started my starter almost 2 years ago , from day 5 I thought it had died, but it picked up again on day 8 and is going great ever since.
Starters go through some changes before they get consistent.
That's good to know. You gave me hope.
I've read that stiff starters are also easier to maintain, as they can be left for longer times in the fridge between feedings. How often do you feed it?
Do you use your starter in the recipe without adding any helping yeast? I guess it takes time to reach that independent stage, no?
I am glad I could help:)
I find that stiff starters are much easier to maintain.
Since mine *Gordon* is of age I can keep him in the fridge, that is something you should not do with a young starter, I would say leave it for a couple of month until you have a strong starter.
I use my starter ever 3 days now, I pull him out of the fridge and take what I need, feed him up and put him back in the fridge until I need him again 3 days later.
You can keep your starter in the fridge for weeks on end, but I would feed him at every 2 weeks.
I never used yeast.
I started my starter and I waited 3 weeks until my first bake to be sure I have a good strong starter.
At the moment I use a 90% hydration starter to see how the taste will be and my 50% hydration starter has a longer nap in the fridge but will be fed every 7 days.
How do you tell when it is strong enough? how much time does Gordon need to make a dough double in volume? and in what percentage? (do you calculate it based on the weight of the flour, or the weight of total ingredients?)
When you feed your starter, do you put it back immediately in the fridge, or allow it time to double on the counter first?
Once out of the fridge, do you use your Gordon in your recipe right away? or do you feed him first, allow him time to double (or is it triple?) on the counter before using in the recipe?
With a stiff starter you should go by 30% of the weight of all of the Ingredients BUT I found that 200g of stiff starter is just fine for a formula .
600g Flour
400g Water
10g - 14g salt depending how salty you like your loaf * we like it a bit more salty *
2 tbsp oil.
You can use 700g of Flour.
This is a tried and tested method for my breads , it works great and gives me all I want in a sourdough bread.
My * Gordon * doubles within 4 - 6 hours of feeding depending on how warm my kitchen is that day.
If he has been in the fridge for only 3 days I just let him warm up and use him.
Any longer than 3 days and I would give him one feed before using.
I put him back in the fridge 1 hour after feeding.