March 18, 2015 - 11:05am
Starter "Issue"...or not?
So I've been using the same starter for years now. I keep it in the fridge, and feed it 2-3 times a day a few days before I need it (e.g. take it out of fridge Thursday for a weekend bake).
Lately I feel like my starter has been "weak"...like, I'll do a float test to ensure it's ready, mix it with the bread, and come home 8 hours later..in the "old days", it would have at least doubled in size, or even expanded out of the container, but it barely moved.
So I left it for another overnight...so now it's been 24 hours...and boom it's perfectly risen and ready for proofing in the bread baskets.
Is it the temperature of my house? Was the yeast not active enough? I find the starter is practically everything when it comes to sourdough.
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Flour?
Hydration?
Method?
:)
Missing critical data like temperature, yeah, I would hazard it was not active enough. Why is the critical questions to me. One thing that catches my attention is the 2-3 feedings per day the first day. That seems a lot if it isn't responding. Are you discarding a portion of the starter each time? If not, maybe you have built up too many waste products and it's time to 're-culture' the starter. i.e. make a 10% starter. Once it has fully doubled (even if it's 24 hours), do it again. Pull 10%, toss the rest, and feed it. In my experience that should get you a large healthy population going and acting like it used to.
Temperature can cause large differences in ferment/rise time. But your house would have to be pretty cold (maybe low 50s) to extend fermentation times to 24 hours without exhausting the dough. Maybe the refrigerator temperature has gotten colder: refrigerator temperatures do seem to favor the lactobacillus over the yeast. Maybe it would help to maintain the starter at room temperature for a few weeks? The previous poster mentioned the 2-3 daily feedings. Maybe that is the issue. The starter hasn't really woken up yet before you hit it again. Although for mine at 65 degrees or above, I could feed every 6 hours. At around 65 degrees it peaks at around 5hours. I don't keep it in the refrigerator though.
At temperatures from mid-60s to the mid-70s, the yeast and lactobacillus are pretty equally active.
Thank you all for the responses.
I follow Tartine's recipe for the bread. My starter is fed with a 50-50 mix of white/wheat flour and water, and I typically do a 50-50 mix of those by weight. Brand is King Arthur unbleached white and KA whole what.
I think all the factors mentioned are relevant. I am not an expert at the starter, though I've been baking successfully for a few years now. I typically take the starter out of the fridge, throw away a little, and add 10-20 grams of water and 10-20 grams of flour per feeding. Sometimes I feed it it every 12 hours, sometimes every 8.
My house is typically 68-72F and 50% humidity.
So:
What should I do to modify my routine?
If you keep 100g, throw a little away then feed 10-20g of flour and water then it won't rise that much. Your starter will loose strength like this as most of the flour in it is spent. Will lack lustre.
Keep little in the fridge. When it comes to baking take a small amount off and build with that with feeds that exceed the amount you take off.
When the one in the fridge runs low just take out and feed with flour that exceeds the amount of starter that is left plus same weight in water, allow it to feed by a 1/3rd and return to the fridge and repeat the process.
I should note Tartine advocates throwing away the old starter with every new starter you make...but I never do that, I just maintain the old one...perhaps that's an issue too? As noted, too many waste products.
...Chad Robertson makes a whole new starter every time he bakes bread. Takes days to make a starter and simply not feasible. Just use a starter for your bread then it's not advisable to use it again or maintain it and start the whole process again? The whole idea is that your starter can be maintained indefinitely and I believe with the correct feeding it will remain healthy.
Say you need 150g of starter as a levain. simply take off 16g from your starter in the fridge and the feed that 17g flour + 17g water. Then 12 hours later you'll have a well fed mature 50g of starter.
Then feed that 50g of starter with 50g flour + 50g water and a few hours later (less this time as it was fed with an already highly active mature starter from the first build), you'll have 150g to use in your recipe.
When I said a good feed in the post above I meant no less then a ratio of 1:1:1 which is what you have with these two builds. So the weight of the starter = to the weight of lour it is fed = weight of water it is fed.
Simply adding 20g of flour to 100g of starter (for example) and you'll be building up spent flour.
You could easily do:
1st build: 10g starter + 10g flour + 10g water [1:1:1]
2nd build: 30g starter (from above) + 60g flour + 60g water [1:2:2]
Which will build a strong levain for your bread with a high ratio of fresh flour but just remember the second build will take a bit longer the 2nd example than in the 1st example.
When your starter in the fridge runs low then give it a good feeding and this way there's no discarding and you've given it good feeds instead of poor feeds which will build up old spent flour.
Well, I watched a Video on youtube where he was showing people how he bakes his loafes and yes, he mixed water and flour and used it the next day, he did not use a starter as such.
And used it the next? How does that work? How does that leaven a bread?
I'll have to see that video. Do you have a link?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIIjV6s-0cA
He even uses it after 2 hours!
He says he likes the starter real young, so he mixes water and flour and uses it after 2 hours in the dough.
I think he doesn't explain it too well. But what I think he means is he feeds the starter with flour and water and uses the levain in 2 hours. The way how he explains it he seems to say that he mixes just flour and water together and a young starter is ready in 2 hours. That just can't be right. How will that leaven a bread? That's the only way I can understand it. If anyone out there can watch this video and explain it to me I'd be most grateful.
how he feeds the starter.
Example:
Take 100g sd starter and feed it 50g water and 50g flour, it should be ready quickly most likely in 2 hrs above 75°F.
That 100g of sd starter could possibly be a firm starter. Details are missing.
that makes sensce Mini.
I think you are right Abe.
I coud not believe how the heck that water and flour could levain a bread. lol
Sorry I wasn't clear, he doesn't throw away ALL the starter....I meant, you don't keep the old starter. You used 25 grams to make 400 grams of new starter, half you use for the bread and half to keep as the new mother.
Thanks for your help I will try as you suggest
I use 200g of mature 50% hydration starter in my breads, so I have enough take my starter out of the fridge, take 200g of for baking and feed the other 200g with 200g flour and 100g water.
No waste.
If I bake 2 loafs I need 400g of Starter, so I pull the starter out the night before baking, take 200g out , feed the rest up again for the fridge.
I than feed the 200g with 200g flour and 100g water and have my 400g starter the next morning.
So I never discard any of my starter anymore.
My starter is VERY active, it amazes me what a good starter he is for almost 2 years now , gone through many changes and still works hard to make good bread:)
Here is the recipe but he creates the starter first and over many days. As a professional baker to do this everytime one wishes to bake would be phenomenal wasting and would take forever. There is starter in the recipe and he just shows you how to make it from scratch.
Tools and Materials- For the Starter:
- White bread flour, 1,135 grams
- Whole-wheat flour, 1,135 grams
- Water (lukewarm), 455 grams
- Water (78 degrees), 150 grams per feeding
- For the Leaven:
- Water (78 degrees), 200 grams
- For the Dough:
- Water (80 degrees), 750 grams
- Leaven, 200 grams
- White bread flour, 900 grams
- Whole-wheat flour, 100 grams
- Salt, 20 grams
Chad Robertson's Tartine Country Bread How-To1. Make the Starter: Mix white bread flour with whole-wheat flour. Place lukewarm water in a medium bowl. Add 315 grams flour blend (reserve remaining flour blend), and mix with your hands until mixture is the consistency of a thick, lump-free batter. Cover with a kitchen towel. Let rest in a cool, dark place until bubbles form around the sides and on the surface, about 2 days. A dark crust may form over the top. Once bubbles form, it is time for the first feeding.
2. With each feeding, remove 75 grams; discard remainder of starter. Feed with 150 grams reserved flour blend and 150 grams warm water. Mix, using your hands, until mixture is the consistency of a thick, lump-free batter. Repeat every 24 hours at the same time of day for 15 to 20 days. Once it ferments predictably (rises and falls throughout the day after feedings), it's time to make the leaven.
3. Make the Leaven: The night before you plan to make the dough, discard all but 1 tablespoon of the matured starter. Feed with 200 grams reserved flour blend and the warm water. Cover with a kitchen towel. Let rest in a cool, dark place for 10 to 16 hours. To test leaven's readiness, drop a spoonful into a bowl of room-temperature water. If it sinks, it is not ready and needs more time to ferment and ripen. As it develops, the smell will change from ripe and sour to sweet and pleasantly fermented; when it reaches this stage, it's ready to use.
4. Make the Dough: Pour 700 grams warm water into a large mixing bowl. Add 200 grams leaven. Stir to disperse. (Save your leftover leaven; it is now the beginning of a new starter. To keep it alive to make future loaves, continue to feed it as described in step 2.) Add flours (see ingredient list), and mix dough with your hands until no bits of dry flour remain. Let rest in a cool, dark place for 35 minutes. Add salt and remaining 50 grams warm water.
5. Fold dough on top of itself to incorporate. Transfer to a medium plastic container or a glass bowl. Cover with kitchen towel. Let rest for 30 minutes. The dough will now begin its first rise (bulk fermentation), to develop flavor and strength. (The rise is temperature sensitive; as a rule, warmer dough ferments faster. Robertson tries to maintain the dough at 78 degrees to 82 degrees to accomplish the bulk fermentation in 3 to 4 hours.)
6. Instead of kneading, Robertson develops the dough through a series of "folds" in the container during bulk fermentation. Fold dough, repeating every 30 minutes for 2 1/2 hours. To do a fold, dip 1 hand in water to prevent sticking. Grab the underside of the dough, stretch it out, and fold it back over itself. Rotate container one-quarter turn, and repeat. Do this 2 or 3 times for each fold. After the 3 hours, the dough should feel aerated and softer, and you will see a 20 to 30 percent increase in volume. If not, continue bulk fermentation for 30 minutes to 1 hour more.
7. Pull dough out of container using a dough spatula. Transfer to a floured surface. Lightly dust dough with flour, and cut into 2 pieces using dough scraper. Work each piece into a round using scraper and 1 hand. Tension will build as the dough slightly anchors to the surface as you rotate it. By the end, the dough should have a taut, smooth surface.
8. Dust tops of rounds with flour, cover with a kitchen towel, and let rest on the work surface for 20 to 30 minutes. Slip the dough scraper under each to lift it, being careful to maintain the round shape. Flip rounds floured side down.
9. Line 2 medium baskets or bowls with clean kitchen towels; generously dust with flour. Using the dough scraper, transfer each round to a basket, smooth side down, with seam centered and facing up. Let rest at room temperature (75 degrees to 80 degrees), covered with towels for 3 to 4 hours before baking.
10. Bake the Bread: Twenty minutes before you are ready to bake the bread, preheat oven to 500 degrees, with rack in lowest position, and warm a 9 1/2-inch round or an 11-inch oval Dutch oven (or a heavy ovenproof pot with a tight-fitting lid).
11. Turn out 1 round into heated Dutch oven (it may stick to towel slightly). Score top twice using a razor blade or a sharp knife. Cover with lid. Return to oven, and reduce oven temperature to 450 degrees. Bake for 20 minutes.
12. Carefully remove lid (a cloud of steam will be released). Bake until crust is deep golden brown, 20 to 25 minutes more.
13. Transfer loaf to a wire rack. It will feel light and sound hollow when tapped. Let cool.
14. To bake the second loaf, raise oven temperature to 500 degrees, wipe out Dutch oven with a dry kitchen towel, and reheat with lid for 10 minutes. Repeat steps 11 through 13.
Ok so good news, I did the 10% starter overnight and it was pretty active the next day, so I took 10% of that and made another startert and this morning it was crazy active, had risen over the top of the glass bowl slightly. So I took 200 grams of that to make bread and kept the rest as the mother starter in the fridge.
I'll just be more careful about letting waste products build up and make sure to throw away more of the starter than I was before.
And no need to discard.
Keep the mother starter in the fridge. Take a small amount off each time and do a preferments.
When starter in fridge runs low just take out, feed, allow to bubble up by 1/3rd and return to the fridge. And the whole process starts again.
Just make sure when you do preferments and rebuilding mother starter that they are good feeds I.e. no less than 1:1:1.
How long can a starter last in the fridge with no feedings at all?
See when I bake weekly it wasn't an issue but if I don't bake for a couple of weeks I'd feed the fridge starter and put it back/
...if you make sure that your starter is active but has enough food as reserves when you return it to the fridge it can last a while. I typically do around 3 weeks. Some here on TFL do a lot longer. You've gotta find a balance of how much to keep depending on how much you bake. Let's say you keep 80g and you bake once a week then take 20g off each time to do your builds with and 3 weeks later you'll be down to 20g of mother starter. So then feed mother with 30g flour + 30g water, leave out till active and fed about 1/3rd, then return to the fridge. You now have 80g to last you 3 more weeks. Just as an example!!
I usually don't know exactly how much I've got at any one time. But don't keep 100s of grams. Usually I just eyeball it. Build up enough for a few weeks and take a little off each time. When I see it's running low I'll feed it. I don't keep a calendar. Giving you numbers as an example. If you wish to feed more often, e.g. Every two weeks, then keep a bit less. It's all about balance. Find one that works for you.
Thank you very much. I will experiment going forward.
The starter quality seems to be everything! Cold, hot, whatever if the starter is active I get a good bake. I'd say my biggest issue was under proofing the bread due to weak starter and then baking it anyway...if I leave it 24 hours it still comes out good but then again that's too long to wait.
From 2 builds. This way you ensure your starter is strong. There is no single correct way just make sure they are good feeds. If you are following a recipe which calls for a preferment if:
30g starter + 45g flour + 45g water (for example)
Then just introduce a step prior to this and build that 30g by taking 10g of your starter and feeding it 10g flour + 10g water. Wait till its mature then go onto the recipe and do their build.
You've introduced another step and you've made the levain stronger.
Best of luck.
Patience always pays off!
Got a good bake. Rosemary olive sourdough. 5-6 hour bulk rise and then into the baskets for an overnight cold proof in the fridge.
Good oven spring and nice crust. I love rosemary and olive. Would like to see a crumb shot if possible and is it ok to get the recipe?
I'm giving it to a friend later so I'll post a shot when she cuts it.
It's the standard Tartine method, 800 grams water, 1000 grams flour (20% whole wheat, 80% unbleached white), 200 grams of young starter and 20 grams of salt plus 4 sprigs chopped rosemary and a jar of sliced kalamata olives (added to the water and leaven before flour added).
That's nice of you. I'm sure your friend will love it.
So a week later the new mother starter is going strong...perhaps the best bake ever really. Huge huge volume, even with a 24 hours refrigeration. I did a 10% new starter with 12 hour rest and it was great.
Do we get a crumb shot this time?
This time yes :)
Crumb looks like high wholegrain content but still lovely soft crumb. Looks delicious.
Enjoy!
Thanks. Texture wise it was perfect. I did put slightly too much whole wheat flour, good eye.