Starter newbie - troubleshooting request
Hi everyone -
I am new around here, but not new to bread. My grandma taught me to make bread (with dry yeast, hand kneading) about ten years ago, and since then I have made my own bread during periods where I have had time/space in my life for it, which has not been consistently. So I am no pro, but not a total novice either.... I do enjoy the process and recently I've gotten into it again and thought I'd try to make my own starter, which I've never done before.
So for no particular reason I started using this person's recipe/directions.
I have used King Arthur AP flour to start and for all my feedings for the past six days. The first two days things seemed right based on that person's instructions, and the third day I had a good amount of rise and a lot of bubbles, and I was excited. It was stretchy and thick when I stirred it. Then on the fourth day, I maybe waited a little too long between the feedings (by a couple hours) and I had what I later learned was hooch going on. Maybe a half centimeter on the surface. I poured it off and did another feeding, and the next day it had maybe risen a very little bit, but again I had hooch, but less. This morning I have a small amount of hooch. I stirred it, but didn't feed yet.
I know there are a lot of variables - and at this point I'm not sure if my starter could actually be functional, or it needs more time and some adjustments, or if I should start over.
- It's not rising a lot, but it is very bubbly, but I guess because that liquid keeps forming on top, it's not expanding much. I'm imagining that when it's ready it should be stickier and have lots of bubbles and almost stretchy, like the third day where I thought I saw what I thought I wanted. The consistency now is more like pancake batter, it's a little sticky but I mean, it doesn't seem right.
- my kitchen is right about 70 degrees. I have been leaving the starter either next to my stove or on top of the fridge - there are no drafts but it's not above 70 in here - I could put it in my toaster oven or oven perhaps to keep it warmer?
- I have been mixing fridge-cold britta filtered water into it with the feedings the last few days. I was reading somewhere else that maybe I should use like 80-degree water (F) .... could warmer water help?
I would love any feedback from anyone here, on anything I am doing wrong or things I could attempt. It's the weekend so I've got time to play around with it. I was reading elsewhere that maybe I should dump half and then try a different feeding ratio (like more water to flour) for a couple days, but elsewhere I read that the hooch could be a symptom of too much water, so I don't know. If I dump some off (right now I have a quart of starter), I was thinking about trying to use it in bread or maybe some other recipe. I know maybe it won't turn out, but if there are any suggestions on a recipe that could tolerate a sluggish starter, I'd like that as well. Or if that's a bad idea let me know.
Thanks a ton in advance for any suggestions or feedback.
Things are going well, so far, but it will take another two weeks before your starter will be ready to make bread and another two weeks before it will be considered mature. I suggest that you mix your starter and take out two ounces by weight and to this add two ounces of pineapple juice and two ounces of all purpose unbleached flour mix, and let stand at about 80°F until it doubles in volume or 24 hours which ever comes later. Discard the rest. Then, take 2 oz. of this and add 2 oz. each of flour and pineapple juice mix and again let stand until doubled or 24 hours. Continue the process except now substitute chlorine-free water for the pineapple juice. Discard the unused starter. Keep only 4 to 8 ounces of the refreshed starter.
Check out http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10901/pineapple-juice-solution-part-2.
The optimum temperature for the growth of starter is 80* to 85*F. Active, mature starter may be stored in the refrigerator for 2 to 4 weeks without refreshing. However this refrigerated starter may require two feedings at room temperature to become fully active. If you are keeping only 4 to 8 ounces of starter then two builds without discarding will give you the amount os starter you require.
Ford
Thank you! So yeah, that article definitely seemed to describe what happened to me. I will try this as soon as I get to the store for some pineapple juice! Luckily it's also getting a little warmer here so I think I can find an 80 degree place somewhere.
So assuming all goes well, how long do I keep the starter out? You are saying it might be two more weeks until I'm bread-ready - does that mean I have it out at room temperature that whole time? Or even longer?
Keep refreshing about 2 oz. of starter every 24 hours or until it doubles in volume which ever is later. Throw away the unrefreshed starter. The 80° to 85°F is optimum but not essential. Yes, keep the starter out all during the start-up period. Later, after it is mature, you may refrigerate it, if you desire.
Ford
It is usual for starters to be active in the first 2 days then go quiet. This initial reaction is called leuconostoc activity. Basically, bad bacteria. Then the starter becomes acidic killing off these baddies giving the yeasts and good bacteria a good environment to grow. Even though you can't see anything things are happening. Just carry on with regular feeds giving it a stir every now and again.
Let us know how you're getting on.
the bubble rise and break on the surface so it won't rise. Thicken it up with some more flour till it looks like a really thick pancake batter that won't pour..
The normal cycle for a brand new starter is day 2 and 3 very vigorous with 3 being the peak - for all the wrong reasons- the bad Lab and yeast are in control and the culture isn't acidic enough to let the good ones come on. day 4-5 6 the culture looks almost dead with day 5 being the worst. Good news the good ones are starting to win out. Day 7 the culture starts to strengthen for all the right reasons with the good wee beasties in control - yeah - should be smooth sailing and the first loaf can be raised somewhere between day 10 and 14 without much worry but it won't be mature or at full strength yet.
The 6 big mistakes are - not enough patience, starting the culture without putting some weak fruit acid in the mix like pineapples juice or orange juice. Making the culture too thin so it won't rise. Tossing it when goes dormant at day 5 thinking it is dead. Not using whole grain flour and last but nit least not having the 80-84 F for their little baby.
Happy SD baking
I am also new to sourdough starters. I fed mine every 12 hours 1:1:1 starter:flour:water for the first week, then every 12 hours 1:2:2 for the second week 12g starter, 24g AP flour, 24g water 75 to 80 degrees. It doubled reliably but it has been cold here. Yesterday was very warm for the season and it quadrupled overnight. I made the first bread day 16 and it was definitely robust.
I changed to the 1:2:2 ratio because mine seemed to be starving by the 12 hour mark. Hang in there. And you don't need to keep a quart of starter - while it is maturing a small amount saves a lot of flour, then after it matures you can build it up when you need an amount to bake with. Since you have so much, you could try the 1:2:2 and warmer water with a small portion to see if it responds better, then there is no risk to your current starter.
Just an alternative to pineapple juice, it's a hike to find that kind of stuff for me so I just stuck it out with flour and water.
Soon!
~D
when the 70°F is slowing it down almost doubling or even tripling the time it takes at a warmer room temp of 75°F. So instead of one week, it will take 2 to 3 weeks at this rate.
Your "first day" was dragged out for two or three days in reality. This means that should the temperature stay at 70°F, then if should only be fed every 2 days. The hooch is not hooch but water and flour separation and that the water is becoming less each time is good, it means something is keeping the water from separating. Soon it will get more cloudy or you may see small bubbles rising up from the floury part. You can also just add less water (or juice) when feeding but I think the extra water will not hurt it, it just can't rise when it is so thin, So don't use "rising" as an indicator and go more by smell, aroma and bubbles running up the sides of the jar. That may be a week away. Don't rush the starter.
If you get it warm, you only need to get it warm one day, the rest of the time 75°F is warm enough for more even bacterial and yeast growth. When you start smelling the yeast, the starter is almost ready to go to work. Give it another day fermenting and then start thickening it up with flour so it is more like a dough. There will be a little lag time but It will then be able to rise for you.
One major difference you will find when comparing instant yeast, flour & water to a sourdough culture, flour & water is that the bacteria in the sourdough will produce by-products that will make the doughy mixture thin out or feel wetter as it ferments.
Thank you all so much. That initial recipe I looked at made it seem like the starter could be ready to use at day 5 and that obviously isn't typical. So that threw me off. No more rushing. :)
I got pineapple juice (easy for me to get) and mixed about 2 ounces with the same amount of flour and starter last night. 1:1:1 ratio. I left it in the oven (turned off obviously, but probably a little warmer in there than sitting out on the counter) and this morning it's already almost doubled and it's way bubblier than my mixture looked the last two days. I will do another juice feeding tonight and then switch to the water.
Anconas or others - how do you know if it's starving? I have more questions about the best way to manage it once it's mature but I will save them. Thanks again!
Has eaten through its food, risen, fallen and stopped bubbling it's already hungry. One sign is hooch forming. If you bake often and it gets fed daily then no problem. Bake weekly or less often then simply feed your starter and allow it to feed by a quarter then refrigerate. This way it has plenty of reserves and can go for quite a while between feeds. When you come to bake simply take a little off at a time to build your preferments. Once the starter in the fridge runs low just take it out, feed, allow to bubble up by a quarter then return to the fridge etc...
I am completely new to making bread and sourdough, I just wanted to give you encouragement not to give up and give it time and some options if the preferred methods were not easy for you.
Maintaining a 100% hydration starter as it is developing is easier in 12 hour intervals. As said, if you can tell it rose then started to fall by the 12 hour mark - I'm using a mason jar - rotating two - I mix the new refreshment of starter from jar one and place it in a bowl, add the feed proportion, then put it in jar two. This way when it rises, I can see it clearly, and if it falls, it leaves trails on the glass that I can see - if it falls before the 12 hour mark, that is my timeline, I perceived that as starving - there was not enough food to sustain it to my feed point so I adjusted. Jar two becomes jar one and I rotate.
Starter cast offs when you do a new feed are questionable until you confirm it is active enough to raise bread, I have discarded those cast offs while reading that the yeast balance is not stable with the bacteria. This is why I used small proportions in week two. As I have confirmed my starter can raise bread when properly maintained, I may use the cast offs to make bread, dog biscuits, add flavor with a bit of straight dough if I don't have enough to use the starter as pure leaven, etc.
I'm going to keep mine going for at least a month to allow it to develop and then transition to refrigeration at 100% hydration and split to trying a less hydration maintenance plan.
In a search based on what the others have stated, there is a bunch of info on ongoing maintenance after it is developed.
No actual advice here, just some camaraderie in the newness :)
~D
juice until the yeast smell appears at 70°F. A few days more would also help at 75°F. Especially since your flour likes to bubble with bacterial activity when liquid is added. The idea here is to lower the pH quickly with the acid in the juice.
Hi again - Just wanted to update with the situation. I have fed for three days on pineapple juice. I have been taking 3 ounces of the starter (and tossing the rest) and mixing in 3 oz. juice and 3 oz flour). I have the starter in the oven with the light in. I'd say it's 75 in there. The mixture is now much thicker even when I mix it after 12 hours. I've been feeding in evenings, and in the mornings it's at least three times it's original size, and I mix it and it's stretchy, airy, yeasty. In the evenings again it's the same - raised, yeasty, airy, stretchy.
From what you all said I should probably switch to water now (although I have more juice if that's helpful) but keep feeding. How do you know when it's ready. Also, now that I have been dumping, it's not that much starter. When I make bread eventually I need at least a cup, maybe two (right?) so should I keep dumping at this point, or just feed it at a different ratio.
Thanks so much for all your expert help I am so excited about this endeavor!
Go for it. If you got yeasty, and it smells good, you want to save some starter to feed and use the rest in a recipe. When it peaks, use it.
You can easily double the amounts of starter, water and flour. You can also change the ratio of starter to flour, giving more flour. Before changing the feeding ratio, try a feeding with water and standing it out in the 70°F kitchen and time it to see how long it takes to peak out.
Now that yeast are established, the starter should not have too much trouble with the cooler temperatures. Try it and see how long it takes. Don't feed it again until it has peaked. (Save a small amount of the discard as a back-up in the refrigerator.) Then repeat. With that timing in mind, increase all the amounts (starter, water, flour) to peak when you want to mix up the dough.
Let the remaining starter continue to ferment slipping it into your desired feeding schedule. A suggested schedule is to save enough starter and add enough water and flour to have it peak in about 8 -9 hrs with a short wait to 12 hours if on a twice a day feeding schedule. You can play around with the feeding ratios but generally feed the starter equal or more weight in flour. Wait for the starter to mature/peak before giving it maintenance feeds.
Thicker seems strange, are you keeping it covered? It should have a cover and be loose enough that building gasses can escape.
I'm an amateur and still refining my system, but I'll offer you some ideas. First of all you say that your kitchen is around 70F and you also keep your starter in a place near your stove or on top of your fridge to find a warmer place.
I would say that maybe temperature is working against you a bit. At 65F, my starter peaks and deflates right around 5 hours. Based on that and the published activity levels for the yeast and bacteria, my starter would peak at 19 hours at 50F, 3.5 hours at 70F, at 2.5 hours at 75F, and roughly 2 hours at 80F.
Warmer doesn't buy you anything in terms of starter health. It does lead to a quicker exhaustion of the yeast. And I believe after it has peaked and spent itself, the bacteria/yeast balance begins to favor the bacteria, meaning you might be developing a yeast-weak, more acidic starter.
I think the key to a healthy starter is in keeping the yeast/bacillus balanced with each other. So you can go two ways:
1) Keep it cooler and feed morning and night.
2) Continue at the temperatures you’re maintaining but feed every 4 to 6 hours.
#1 is probably the preferred strategy, because it slows things down and gives you more control. When you’re getting better results consistently, you can then experiment with warmer temperatures and alternative feeding schedules. Note that yeast and bacteria activity is about equal from about 65 to about 75, so I’d go for somewhere in the 65 to 68 range. This minimizes the amount of time the starter sits around waiting for a feeding, and the amount of time the yeast spends losing ground to the lactobacillus.
For what it's worth I started mine from scratch using rye flour. Now I only use all purpose flour. A feeding is 20g of old starter, with10g of water and 10g of new flour.
I don't think it's emphasized enough that you are working with living organisms that need certain conditions, and temperature is often neglected in the recommendations you get. The time estimates you are given seem to be pretty useless unless you are also told the corresponding temperature. A difference of only a few degrees can make the difference between success and disappointing failure. Also I often see recommendations in recipes in books and online that would cause utter failure in my kitchen. I sometimes wonder if people actually make their own recipes.
Hi again - last night I did a water feed and didn't toss anything, because I want to try to bake soon, although that might have been jumping the gun because I may not have time until the weekend... but anyway, I had 8 ounces of starter, and I mixed in 8 ounces of water and 8 ounces of flour. I left it out (house at 70 degrees now) not in the oven overnight and this morning it was already tripled, hadn't fallen. I didn't stir it this morning at all, so I assume when I get home from work it will have/should have fallen? I think this is what you mean by peaking, like the peak is whatever time it takes to get the highest before it collapses, right? I can't watch it all day during the week...
When I said it was thick before, I guess I'm still comparing to the early days when it was like pancake batter. I do have a very loose plastic lid on it, but air can escape. It's stretchy (upon stirring) and bubbly on top and basically has a lot of little air pockets and yeasty and smells delicious to me, and actually the smell is obvious even walking into the house, so I think that's good.
Anyway..... I feel like I just keep having more questions, but I can read more. If anyone has a great easy first recipe though, please link or share. One thing I'm wondering if there is protocols or no nos in terms of mixing flours when my starter is all AP flour. Like will I be able to use whole wheat and or rye flour to make bread with this starter down the road? And thanks again - you have all been super super helpful!
Good beginner sourdough recipe or Newbie sourdough recipe or Simple sourdough recipe and see what pops up. There are a few just posted in the last week.
So where is that "initial recipe" you started out with?
The thought did cross my mind that if the dough was stirred up this morning, you could fold and final proof it when you get home. Depends on the recipe but you could tweak the starter until it fits your schedule.
The refrigerator is a great place to store a peaking starter until you get home to mix up the dough, the same day. Tonight you could mix up a dough with the starter and then chill or retard it right away. (don't forget to take a little starter and feed it on the side) Then warm it up with your hands and some folding when you get home from work on Thursday to bake it.
Hi again!
I just had to check in again because I just took my first sourdough loaves out of the oven and I'm extremely pleased! I realized I needed to wait until the weekend to at least monitor rising and whatnot the first few times... I used this KA recipe - although no citric acid.
I had a lot of starter as of last night so I made a double batch... I didn't realize that I could switch the KA recipe to ounces until after I mixed the first part up, so I started mixing the autolyse step with cups, and I think I basically added way too much flour at that step because this morning when I was mixing the salt and additional flour into the dough it seemed like it was going to be way too much flour, so I just followed my gut and the dough turned out well. I have a tendency to add too much flour to my yeast breads so I just tried to resist and let the dough be tacky.... I waited five hours on the first rise and then three the second one. The bread did a nice rise, lots of air bubbles, it's delicious, the only thing is I would probably add a little more salt next time, but I'm so pleased.
Thanks again to everyone!
I'm so glad you reported back on your success, thanks for the inspiration and celebration :)
Glad they turned out for you!
When you loose track of the flour to figure the salt, the easiest way to check it is to taste the dough while kneading. :)
Mmmmm fresh bread!