The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

SJSD II - Baby Steps...

greenbriel's picture
greenbriel

SJSD II - Baby Steps...

Had another go at David Snyder's fantastic San Joaquin Sourdough Baguettes today. I've still a ways to go, but I saw some improvement from the last batch, so I'm happy. 

This time I added a 3 hour warm up on the bench after the long, cold ferment. I do suspect it's the coldness of my fridge that makes that step necessary for me. Definitely seemed to make a big improvement in the crumb, it was a lot more open. If one thing gets better each try, all is good :)

After this batch I think David's comment on my last attempt that I need to examine my steam is spot on. I scored these fairly well, I think (using ElPanadero's suggestion of less scores, though I ended up with four rather than three - just felt right), but no ears. It's entirely possible that I was focussed so much on other aspects of the cuts that I let the lateral angle get too vertical, but I think I do need more steam in the first 10 minutes. I suspect it's drying out early in there. I probably need to work on a tighter cloak during shaping, too.

Taste was fantastic, just like last time. Crust maybe slightly thicker and crunchier. Had leftover roast chicken sandwiches with homemade mayo for dinner tonight. Definitely a keeper! 

Cheers!

-Gabe

Comments

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

The scoring is much improved, and the crumb is still very nice.

Keep at it. You're on a roll! ... Well, that's more than a roll, but you know what I mean.

Happy baking!

David

greenbriel's picture
greenbriel

Whyd'ya remove the last paragraph? I loved it and it's also why I'm loving the pursuit so much! 

My original reply below. Thanks, David!

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

You saw my original reply? I didn't. On my screen, only the Subject appeared. I assumed the system ate my Comment, not for the first time. So, I edited it and added what you see now.

I am glad you got to see my sentiments and appreciated them.

David

greenbriel's picture
greenbriel

... showed up in the email notification.

I am an utter serial hobbyist (my dear, patient wife calls it "hobby hoarding"). If I'm being honest and realistic, my high interest in baking (coming up on two years, which classifies it as a "serious interest" in my book) will probably wane at some point, but it's great when the chase is so elusive, and there are so many things to learn.

That said, there's just something about bread, isn't there? I've loved it since I was a kid. It's almost like alchemy.

Anyway, I'm late night rambling. Thanks for everything, have a great one.

-Gabe

greenbriel's picture
greenbriel

I love this recipe.

Think I'm going to start to crank out a bunch of txfarmer's same-day straight dough baguettes between these lengthier bakes to increase the number of times I get to practice shaping, scoring, and experimenting with steaming techniques. It'll likely produce more loaves than my wife and I can eat, but we are friends with all our neighbours and they love free bread!

On a roll? Doughn't get me started with the bread jokes! :)

Cheers, David,

-Gabe

dosco's picture
dosco

Nice bake, the baguettes looks delicious.

I read your post and it reminded me of my chase for "ears."

I don't think the development of an ear is firstly a function of scoring. I think it is a function of gluten development, gluten tension on the outer surface of the dough, and oven spring.

As an engineer it strikes me that it might be informative to make a finite element model of a loaf of dough to model ear development in an effort to better understand the variables involved in ear development. But that would be a crazy amount of work that might make for a nice PhD thesis for someone someday.

Cheers-
Dave

 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

They are not engineers, only master bakers, but both Jeffrey Hamelman and Michel Suas have written about the requirements for ear development. I summarized this in the following blog entry:

What's the point of an ear? Controlled bloom!

Certainly good gluten development and loaf shaping are also important, but they are givens to these professionals. Another important variable is oven steaming. Both insufficient steam and excessive steam will subvert optimal ear formation, the former through premature crust formation and the latter by causing collapse of the ear before it firms up.

Hope this helps.

For a more complete discussion of scoring, please see: Scoring Bread: An updated tutorial

David

greenbriel's picture
greenbriel

Thanks both! In my case I do think the most likely candidate is insufficient steam. I am currently bulk rising some quick straight dough to have another practice run today.

I do sometimes get great grigne and ears, but for some reason find it harder with baguettes, particularly those with no commercial yeast.

Thanks David for the great tutorial. I had already read it a couple of times and it helped enormously.

Best,

-Gabe

dosco's picture
dosco

David:
I hope you don't think that I'm throwing Hamelman and Suas under the bus because "they're only master bakers" and not engineers. Clearly someone who devotes their life with passion and vigor in any field should get some (or a significant) measure of respect. Perhaps one day we can have an interesting conversation regarding life, the universe, and other things over a nice glass of wine and some of your fine SJSD.

Thanks for posting your tutorials, I've read them previously and like any of the classics they get better the more you read them.

Regards-
Dave

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

No accusation was intended. I learned a lot about the potential tension between quantifiable data-based decisions and clinical judgement in medical school. Both are essential, but, in considering phenomena with many, many causal factors some of which are not practical to measure, clinical judgment does often trump.

This is not a value judgement, just an observation.

"Life, the universe and other things" is my favorite topic of conversation! And it only gets better with a glass of wine, etc.

Happy baking!

David

greenbriel's picture
greenbriel

Agree that everything contributes to the ears, but I do think that scoring correctly is important, and my last experiment (see last blog post) has convinced me that steam technique, and especially timing of steam, is very important. 

Loving the pursuit!

Cheers,

-Gabe

PS, knock yourself out with that finite element model of a loaf. You lost me at finite element ;-D

dosco's picture
dosco

I agree that the scoring should be done correctly ... one thing I was thinking about when I typed out my message, but didn't state explicitly, is that I suspect one could do the scoring "properly" but still get an undesirable result.

The finite element model? It would be educational and interesting, but until I go back to school to get my PhD (at least 10 years from now after the kids are out of the house and graduated from college) it will remain a "pie in the sky" idea in my mind. :)

Cheers-
Dave

 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

Nothing like progress when on a baguette quest.  You are getting closer and closer with nice jumps is quality each time.  It won't be long now.  Well done and

Happy baking 

greenbriel's picture
greenbriel

is OK by me :-)

Thanks as always for the nice and encouraging words, dab.

-Gabe

quirkey's picture
quirkey

These look great! What are you doing for steam for these? I still havent been able to nail getting my steam good enough without using a dutchoven/boules.

greenbriel's picture
greenbriel

... I'll get there one day :)

I'm currently just using a big cast iron pan on the oven floor. Previously I had also had a small pan that got water or ice BEFORE loading the oven, and having baked with, and without it, I think that's a good thing to do. Another TFLer did an experiment (forget who, sorry!) where a loaf was put in a dry oven, steam applied, and then an identical loaf put in a couple of minutes later (therefore into a pre steamed oven) and the difference in results was  amazing.

As mentioned, I do think my steam is, well, running out of steam, before the 10 minutes is up. I'm going to experiment with lava rocks and/or MegaSteam (search on TFL for details, but it uses hot wet towels in a hot pan).

Cheers,

-Gabe

alfanso's picture
alfanso

You are either a quick learn, have gifted hands (or are just too lucky) to be so far along in the baguette world so quickly.

Crust and especially crumb are looking exceptional.  Nice going.

alan

PS My vote is for the combination of Sylvia's steaming towel and the lava rocks.  Both.  With a release of steam at ~ the 12 minute mark, oven set somewhere ~480 dF.  

And once you enter the world of no Dutch Oven baking, watch you oven temp.  I bought a new oven in Oct/Nov 2014 which has a much slower temperature recovery than my previous oven.  Consequently, even with the aforementioned steam combo and a tile baking deck, I had to relearn how to set/reset my oven to get an appropriate and consistent temperature.  Don't just assume that you set the oven at ex: 480 dF and it will consistently stay there.  Maybe yes, maybe no.  For me it was definitely no with the new oven.

In any case, what you've displayed here so far has been delightful.

greenbriel's picture
greenbriel

Thanks Alan!

I really appreciate the very kind words and encouragement, especially from one who has experienced baguette fever :) 

I just posted a practice bake that I tried in order to experiment with MegaSteam that failed in some regards, but gave me good information. Going to order some lava rocks tonight.

About the oven's temperature recovery: I hadn't thought about that! I periodically check to make sure the oven is getting to the requested temp, but I should leave the thermometer in there and ride the control accordingly as doors open, steam gets generated, loaves are loaded, etc.

Thanks again,

-Gabe

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

Mega steam is the way to go when not using a DO.  I fill the entire bottom rack under the stone on the level above with 2 of Sylvia's steaming pans half full of water with a kitchen towel rolled up in each one and 1 of Davis's pans with lava rocks also half full of water .  When the oven hits your preset temperature that is when you put the pans in the oven.  15 minutes later the stone will have caught up to the oven temperature and the steam will be billowing.  When you open the door to load the bread do not have your face anywhere near the door or your face will be horribly burned    Baguettes bake for a very short time and half of it should be under steam.

David mentions that you can over steam them but I don't think that is possible with a home oven.  You can even throw a 1/4 C of water in the bottom of the oven as you close the door for instant steam.  Now you have Mega Steam and you won't ever look back:-)

Happy Mega steaming

greenbriel's picture
greenbriel

Thanks for the push, dab! I just posted about the experience on the blog, and based on that, I suspect David means steaming for too long, rather than generating too much steam, if that makes sense,

I think steamed for too long (and MegaSteam generates a goodly amount!) and the crust stayed pliable for long enough that the ears and bloom fell back in on themselves.

I'm definitely a total convert to the Mega Steam method though. Thanks!!!

-Gabe

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

at Home Depot or Lowes in their garden center.  They come in red and  black.  They use them for decorating gardens.  Very cheap for the small bag you need .  No need to order them put and pay a high price.

greenbriel's picture
greenbriel

Amazon has them for $10 delivered (I have Prime), Lowes looks like $5. Thanks!

ElPanadero's picture
ElPanadero

The crumb is actually quite like ciabatta. Looks tasty.

In terms of the scoring, what are you using? A knife, razor blade or lame? It kinda matters because you ideally want that curved blade you get with a curved lame so that your score sort of scoops under the dough. A straight knife cut tends to produce a different finish in my experience. On Youtube videos it is sometimes not obvious to see as the experienced bakers score so quickly, but with the standard curved lame they have it close to horizontal when scoring.

greenbriel's picture
greenbriel

It's a really great recipe.

I've tried it all in terms of scoring - razor blades held in the hand, straight edge razors, serrated knives, sharp chef's knives, and currently using an improvised lame - razor blade held on coffee stirrer. It's working well - I feel like my technique is about there, my oversteaming is what is killing my bloom and ears.