Any thoughts on my dense special needs loaf?
Hi I know there have been a lot of posts lately on dense sourdough loaves. I am trying to make a loaf that uses gluten but does not use wheat/spelt/rye for my husband's special diet needs. In my latest attempt, I used the KAF rustic sourdough bread recipe:
227 g fed starter
340 g lukewarm water
2 tsp instant yeast
14 g sugar
2 1/2 tsp salt
602 g KAF AP flour
Instructions: Combine and knead, allow to double in size for 90 minutes; divde in half, shape, proof 1 hour, bake 25 to 30 minutes at 425F
I did two major things differently. First, I made one giant loaf in a covered dutch oven that I did not preheat and it took an extra 20 minutes or so to bake in order for it to get above an internal temperature of 200F.
Second, and even more major, is that I did not use the flour specified. Instead of the 602 g of AP flour I used 76 g vital wheat gluten and 526 g of a mixture of millet, sorghum, amaranth and gluten free flour mix. I figured this mixture would approximate the 12.7 percent gluten content of the KAF bread flour.
I bulked up my 100 percent hydration starter with sorghum and I think the starter was in good shape. I kneaded it for a long time in my kitchen aid and the dough was quite supple--like regular wheat dough would be--not very wet, just had a slightly granular texture from the GF flours. Also, it rose very nicely during the first rise.
But I really knocked it back when shaping it and it didn't rise again as fast as I thought it would. In the oven it didn't have the oven spring I was hoping for.
The loaf is hockey puck dense and has a bit of a yeasty taste. My husband is desperate and eats it toasted.
However, I think I am sort of on the right track and wondering if these modifications would help me produce a lighter loaf:
1. reduce the gluten content to mimic a regular AP flour and not bread flour (the recipe called for AP flour)
2a. do a refrigerator rest and let it finish doubling in size the next morning and transfer the whole shebang to a heated casserole so it has basically only one rise OR
2b. Cut the first rise short and then shape and let it grow to fully double in size before baking it OR
2c Do everything I did the first time except let the second rise go longer than an hour until it is actually double in size (but I was worried about overproofing)
3. make two smaller loaves instead of one large one
Thank you!
Don't knock it back so much. Is it a wet dough, or a regular, smooth-type dough? If it's wettish, treat it as you would a ciabatta and don't knock all the air out of it after it has risen. Well, a bit, but certainly not much. I've never made gluten-free bread myself, but I'm trying to think of all those other types of flour you're using, plus the vital wheat gluten which tends to make a chewy bread, I think, so maybe cut that down a bit too? I do know that you can't make a bread flour out of an all-purpose simply by adding vwg, so I'm not sure of the effect it would have on all your other flours.
Gluten is actually derived from wheat and that is not a problem for him? Intriguing. It will make it a little easier to get a wheat bread like texture. As PaddyL states, it will also give you a chewier loaf.
I think of bread as a collection of starchy bubbles of gas in a netting of gluten held in shape by a sheet of gluten coated with gel (like a raincoat). Not only the amount but the PROPORTION of gluten to starch is important for the texture. When you reduce gluten, the crumb becomes less chewy as there are fewer rubbery strands. When you reduce it a LOT, the bubbles may not be held in place and the gas escapes-esp when there is not enough to form the gluten cloak/raincoat on the outside-this is on the rye and GF side of the scale. If you increase the gluten, the opposite happens-chewy loaf with a dry-feeling crumb. Nothing acts quite like gluten but in GF baking, gums act almost like gluten to help trap and support the bubbles. Keep this idea in your head as you decide what ingredients to manipulate.
I believe your questions for this type of loaf are going to need input from people with different backgrounds- GF,rye,whole grain,bread science and sourdough!
Here are my thoughts-
1. You may need a little more of a low protein GF component in your flour-a little more gel-forming starch. Millet,amaranth and sorghum are considered "high protein" when building a GF flour for bread. Add something in the starches-potatoe starch,corn starch,or even tapioca starch (which can add chewiness)
2. Reduce the VWG to mimic AP flour. My question would be-can this be kneaded to windowpane? Try it. Your fluffiness for this kind of hybrid may depend on developing the gluten and the starchiness by going to windowpane and should be the only time you manipulate this dough.
3. Keep the hydration high-GF flours and VWG are usually thirsty and benefit from some extra absorption time- like whole wheat.
4. Single rise only. Never knock this one back and handle very gently after the initial mad mix to windowpane (if that is possible)and try NOT to handle after it has risen.This is where your loaf will behave more like rye and GF. For flavor, a cold retard but ONLY 1 rise and minimal handling. Your ONLY rise is after the final shaping! So mix/knead,cold retard, final shape, rise, bake.
This is an interesting, hybrid project and I would love to hear followup.
Good Luck!
Are you trying to make gluten-free bread?
Your first sentence says that you're trying to make a bread with gluten but without wheat. I think that this may be tilting at windmills, and as such you should consider some gluten-free alternatives.
As a side note - and I'm sorry if I'm prying - how is it that your husband can eat gluten but not any of the grains that have gluten in them?
Some interesting gluten-free info:
here
here
and Ruhlman's site here
If you search the forum section about Special Needs and Gluten Free there is some goodness. Also there were some TFL blog posts but I can't find them now.
Good luck. I couldn't make it work but I didn't try too hard either.
-Dave
My husband is on a low-FODMAP diet, which was developed at a university in Australia and has been gaining an increasing following in the U.S. FODMAPS is the moniker for a bunch of different kinds of carbohydrates and sugars that are very hard to digest. In some people, they languish in the gut too long and feed all kinds of bacteria that cause problems. FODMAPS are only carbohydrates -- not proteins -- so gluten is not a FODMAP. Wheat, spelt, rye and barley are high FODMAP foods. Spelt sourdough is supposedly tolerable since the fermentation is thought to change the carbohydrate structure but his tummy hasn't been happy with the spelt sourdough loaves I have tried.
My dough was a little damp but not nearly as wet as the no-knead spelt loaves I have tried. It formed a plump, pliable ball. I am not sure of the effect of too much water but I will try cutting back. Also, I did a lazy thing I forgot to mention which a lot of newbies probably do: I did not accurately account for the hydration difference in the starters. Per advice from this board, which I have found very convenient, I maintain my starter at 100 percent hydration. King Arthur Flour instructs users to feed their starter at a ratio of 1 cup flour to 1/2 cup water (to 1 cup starter). So I figured that my starter had a little more water in it but because the recipe only called for a cup of starter and I was making so many other drastic changes, I didn't do the math. Also the recipe was originally written in cups but there is a function on their website to convert it to grams which I did to make it easier.
So I will take this advice but I have two more questions:
1. My starter is just a few weeks old and happily maintained in the fridge with weekly feedings. Last time I did just one build using 15 g starter. If I did two builds, would that give me more firepower in terms of rise?
2. If I do only one rise, should I let it go until double? Or just before so it has some oven spring?
Thank you very much!
Yes, your starter will probably work better for you with a 2 or 3 stage build.
I'm not entirely sure about your second question, I think you'll need to experiment. My initial thought would be 1 rise and then into the oven. Not sure how long to let it go, as I said I think you'll have to test to make a determination. FWIW Forkish recommends doing a bunch of tests with regards to final proof so the baker can observe the effects.
Good luck and keep us posted!
-Dave
Looking over a list of low FODMAP foods (one link) you could try a Spelt, sweet potato or potato, bread spices, seeded loaf. Cooking some oat or potato starch water roux might be the way to go. That might be fun and not too weird either. I could do that. (here is another link that excludes all wheat)
What kind of flour feeds your sourdough starter?
Copied from the first link I mentioned, Grains low in FODMAPS:
"gelled flour" and I was thinking of doing that or adding a little mashed potato but since I was worrying about getting the thing to rise enough I didn't want to gum it down. There is actually an app that the University of Mohash developed that lists the FODMAP content of foods. Oats and amaranth and spelt products are yellow light and need to be limited. Someone on this board mentioned they made a coconut flour and teff flour loaf but it also included regular wheat. I was thinking of adding those as well but perhaps I should try a more scientific approach and just stick with pre-blended flours and change one variable at a time.
I've been using sorghum to build the starters. I don't think it's been tested for fodmaps but it is in a lot of GF flours. I don't really love the flavor, but I did read warnings about not using rice flour in starters since they go too quickly. If I use quinoa it is usually only in part because it can have a bitter taste.
For this next loaf I am going to build with AP wheat flour. I am using bread flour for the one I keep in the fridge and that seems to be working well. I only need 1 cup of starter and that small amount of wheat flour isn't going to be that much of a problem given the size of the finished loaf. I am going to do two builds and these specialty flours are a fortune.
Mini-oven 3 quick questions:
Do you think I should just add potato starch or should I boil a potato and mash it up? Or maybe cook the potato starch in some water before adding it?
If I cut the gluten content down to 10 percent, is that too low?
There are 2 tsp yeast added to the recipe. The recipe I used is written to be made with 2 1/2 hours total rising time. If I do an overnight retard with it, will the instant yeast start to die out and produce a weird taste?
Do you think I should just add potato starch or should I boil a potato and mash it up? Or maybe cook the potato starch in some water before adding it?
When using potato starch, take 5% of the total flour weight for the amount and then 5x that for the water weight. Use a medium to small potato for one loaf, peal cut up and cover with water, cook and mash before adding to dough. With either method, weigh the pan with water and starch before heating and then add any missing water back in after cooling.
if you weigh the potato it is usually at least 80% water perhaps more without the skin. tip: If you want the skin, grate it into the water before heating.
If I cut the gluten content down to 10 percent, is that too low?
No, Can go lower. The written protein amount in most flours is not the gluten content. There are many proteins in flour only a part is gluten.
There are 2 tsp yeast added to the recipe. The recipe I used is written to be made with 2 1/2 hours total rising time. If I do an overnight retard with it, will the instant yeast start to die out and produce a weird taste?
Yes, might not taste weird, might even taste good but the dough may be worn out and no longer rise. It depends on how soon the fermenting dough goes into the refrigerator to slow it down. Since it contains a starter, why not skip the yeast. You can add it the next day should the starter fail to raise the dough. I would opt for the sourdough since it should be giving you the added effects of breaking down long chains of starch. Theory anyway.
Try this, (a new method) make a salt free dough using the sourdough and a slightly lower hydration. Let it ferment a few hours until you notice some fermenting and then chill. Next day, Mix the yeast into the warm (slightly microwaved if also chilled overnight) thickened cooked starch water, let it start to bubble and gently fold into the retarded dough. Add a handful of rolled oats or chia if the mixture seems too wet. But a soft foamy dough is desired. Sprinkle and fold in the salt. Pour into a greased form. Wait 15 minutes for the proteins to all bond together (an arbitrary time) and shove it into the hot or preheating oven. If you have a cover, use it. Figure the loaf will take about an hour at the same temps, reduced slightly after 30 minutes.
If you use either potatoe and potato water or GF flours that have a starch component (or gum like xanthan), you won't need the gelled flour. One of the challenges when going using these starchy components is to get the crumb NOT to be too wet. So use the water roux (Gelled flour) only if you do NOT use these other starch-forming components.
There is a FreshLoafer that made her starter from sorghum flour and she talked about some unique characteristics it went through before it was ready. It was a lot different than a flour-based starter.She posted in the "Special Needs" forum here. LauraT? I'll see if I can find any links for you.
FODMAPS sounds complicated and interesting. Anytime people have bowel probs, though, I have to encourage them to pay attention to the culture-the trendy buzzword is "probiotics". Home fermented yogurts (they have a higher culture population) and home fermented vegetables (sauerkraut,pickles,ketchup) can improve the gut health tremendously. Start slow,go slow. Don't try too much all at once.
Good luck and keep posting your results! So interesting!
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/user/laura-t
very much--they bubble but do not rise and fall like regular wheat starters so it is a little harder to tell when they are peaking.
I am doing my first build tonight.
I think everyone's beautiful pictures are giving me loaf envy.
And you can trap the gas coming off an active starter. Or check on it. Just deflate a plastic baggie and rubber band it tightly onto the starter jar opening. As it becomes more active, it inflates the bag. :)
was on the same mission at this time last year. A non-wheat sandwich loaf even with the addition of gluten.
Minioven, I am going to follow your recommendation for the mixing. I was doing more research last night after reading some of the other threads. You were suggesting a kind of hybrid prefement, right?
Try this, (a new method) make a salt free dough using the sourdough and a slightly lower hydration. Let it ferment a few hours until you notice some fermenting and then chill. Next day, Mix the yeast into the warm (slightly microwaved if also chilled overnight) thickened cooked starch water, let it start to bubble and gently fold into the retarded dough. Add a handful of rolled oats or chia if the mixture seems too wet. But a soft foamy dough is desired. Sprinkle and fold in the salt. Pour into a greased form. Wait 15 minutes for the proteins to all bond together (an arbitrary time) and shove it into the hot or preheating oven. If you have a cover, use it. Figure the loaf will take about an hour at the same temps, reduced slightly after 30 minutes.
After I take it out of the fridge tomorrow morning, I am pretty sure it will be puffy but will not have doubled. Then after I mix in the warmed yeast mixture, it is definitely not going to be puffy. Shouldn't I wait for it to double in size before putting it in the oven? And is 2 tsp too much yeast for this method?
is foaming before folding into the sourdough mixture. The starch mixture can be the potato one or the 5% starch/flour one. I did this with an Einkorn sourdough that didn't even rise overnight. Don't wait for it to double before baking. 2 tsp of yeast is not to much.
If you want to run a test after mixing (and before baking) cut out a dumpling of dough (with a wet spoon) and drop into a hot buttered fry pan and see what it does.
since everyone so kindly took time to reply to my post I wanted to report back on how it went for future reference to anyone trying this.
The recipe I used called for 227 g of fed starter and I did three builds to get it to a hungry, active state. It called for 340 g of water and 602 g of flour and 2 tsp yeast.
I took the gluten down to 10 percent and used a combinations of flours: amaranth, quinoa, millet, coconut, sorghum, KAF gluten free blend. I left out the salt as Mini suggested and let it sit overnight in the fridge. In the morning I split the dough into 2 loaves 1 lb 3 oz each. I added the salt and potato flour/yeast slurry to the first and stuck it in the oven. I also added the yeast and salt to the second but let it sit out a good 5 hours before baking. I had my HP-12C calculator and digital kitchen scale going the whole time so I don't think I made any measuring errors.
Results: The dough bulked up only ever so slightly during the overnight ferment in the fridge. The loaf that I baked immediately after adding the yeast did not rise at all in the oven and was extremely dense. The loaf that waited on the counter for a couple of hours actually did rise maybe an inch or two on the counter but there was no oven spring and overall it had the dense texture of a bagel. However, that particular loaf had the best flavor of all of these wacky attempts I have been trying over the past few weeks.
Conclusion: My theory had been that I might be able to produce a flour that behaves like wheat flour simply by adding vital wheat gluten to GF flours such as millet, sorghum, commercial blends, etc. At least in the traditional sourdough world, I have not had much success with this approach. However, I have also tinkered with the recipes so much that I have too many variables at a time. it is a good thing my husband still likes to eat whatever is coming out of the oven, but all the fails are getting on my nerves!
My starter has started smelling like bleu cheese so I am rebuilding this weekend and am planning to make a straightforward regular spelt loaf Sunday just to get my head straight. Thank you!
and grate it into crumbs. Now look for a way to steam them back together with the air spaces inside. Place into form then into the steamer, open ends even better and steam the crumbs into a loaf. I'm thinking make a log using buttered foil with loosely packed crumbs inside and the ends open. Remove to rack to cool or into a hot oven to brown. When cold slice. Just throwing ideas at you. :)
I think in concepts. It helps me figure out the interactions of the ingredients.
In GF baking, the balance of starchy to higher protein and binders is sensitive. You may need to decrease the potato starch and add a binder of some kind-psyllium,chia,ground flax or xanthan gum, if these are allowed. I think the trick is to make the "dough" strong enough to trap the bubbles and allow them to expand and become airy enough to shed the moisture during baking without falling or bursting the bubbles.
Think of elastic bands (gluten in this case) holding balloons(the bubbles of gas trapped by the starch). The balloons need to be strong enough to hold the bubble without bursting as it grows and the gluten is a strand and not designed to be a bubble but to trap bubbles and expand/hold as needed. The gel medium trapping the bubbles has to be strong enough but also able to thin out with expansion so the crumb is not so dense.This is the concept you are working towards. So it sounds to me like you might need to strengthen the bubble walls and thin them out a bit or the loaf will be dense and moist.
If you are adding potato starch and it is already in the KA GF flour blend, it may be too much. Use some of the KA flour in the custard instead of additional potato flour.I looked up the ingredients of KA GF flour blend and this is what I found:
Arthur Gluten-Free Multi-Purpose Flour
Ingredients:
White rice, whole-grain (brown) rice flour, tapioca starch, and potato starch.
More ideas for you. It is all about doing multiple bakes and learning from each one. I believe the issues you are facing (dense,moist crumb and lack of rise) are more in the GF and rye areas of expertise than wheat-based breadmaking area.That is where you need to seek information. Mini Oven is a great resource-she has a great problem-solving capability and knows ingredients-esp rye. Keep going! And keep posting- this is SO interesting! Consider some loaf and crumb shots. It is amazing what can be learned from a picture.
the library. When reading breadmaking and general baking books in the past, much is made about the absence of gluten in non-wheat flours. I think it is more than just gluten that makes wheat flour special. For example, when I added the gluten to the non-GF flours, even after half an hour of kneading (with my kitchen aid) I could never get the dough to windowpane. Cook's Illustrated had an article a month or two ago on Japanese noodles and there was an extensive discussion on the wheat starch molecules and getting them to untwist, etc. I think I have overlooked the possibility that the wheat starch is as important as the gluten to the properties of wheat flour.
Mini, thank you for the suggestion but I confess I laughed out loud when reading it. I am guessing you have a lot of energy in addition to your creative mind!
I based the suggestion on putu cake. There are different ways to make it. I would first hydrate rice flour (mostly starch) flavour it and steam it, cool, and then grate or crumble, shape and steam again. It is a street food in Indonesia and other Asian countries.
A solid bread brick of starch can also be treated in the same way. I found this video today and find the use of a pressure cooker and cylinder quite clever. The idea being the steam softens the gel and the sticky crumbs then stick to each other forming a matrix. :) I have a cookie press that just might work the same way. Easter bunnies on one end?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muSoTCiYJEQ&spfreload=10
One thing about reheated starches is the rather unexplored area of "resistant starch" and how starches feed gut flora.
The binders like xanthan gum, psyllium, flax, chia seeds and pectin all help stabilize the wall of the bubble so it will contain the gas and not burst. The gluten strands (or protein strands in GF) help contain the bubbles. pH also plays a role in this, as well as salt. I contend that when kneading to windowpane, we are really hydrating and developing the starch. The gluten will form no mater what once liquid is added to VWG or wheat based flour.