using starter straight from refrigerator
Hi, thank you all for the advice and support--I know my question has been asked but not exactly the same way and I have seen conflicting answers.
I got my little container of King Arthur Flour starer up and running and actually made a sprouted spelt sandwich loaf with it yesterday. It came out fine, although there is room for improvement, and I am going to make another loaf tonight using a longer fermentation time.
However, I am confused by different instructions regarding maintaining and using the starter. Yesterday after I took what I needed for my first loaf, I fed it again and stuck it in the fridge, thinking I would return to baking next week. Then, this morning, I changed my mind, took out a portion from the fridge and fed THAT little guy. It has bubbled up and doubled and looks like it is ready to be used.
The patient man on the KAF hotline told me I needed to feed my starter within the past 12 hours before using it. Eric of the famous Breadtopia videos discussed feeding the starter and getting it to a very active stage before using it, as in doubling within 4 to 6 hours. But GAAARP, who posted the informative tutorial below, mentions she keeps her starer in the fridge, feeds it on Wednesdays and then takes out what she needs on Fridays and leaves it on the counter overnight before using it. No mention of additional feedings.
Thus, my confusion. I plan to bake with it once a week, if that, and want to keep it in the fridge. So when I take out what I need, should I feed the portion I intend to use? And for the part that I put back in the fridge, I have read I can just feed it and stick it back in, but then I have also read other advice about leaving it out two hours after feeding it and then returning it to the refrigerator.
Thanks very much in advance.
I feel like I have a new pet.
Starter is ready to be used when fed and bubbly. You feed it, it'll bubble up, peak and fall. The perfect time to catch it is when it has peaked and just starts to fall. This means it needs another feeding which you give it but this time in the dough. The starter you put in your recipe becomes the levain.
Now ask 3 people on this site how to feed and maintain a starter and you'll get 4 answers.
Those who bake everyday feed it eeveryday. No need to store in the fridge and it's always highly active.
Those who bake less should store it in the fridge between feeds. But it is also advisable to give it 2 or more feeds to give it strength.
My way is to store a small tub full in the fridge. When I wish to bake I take a little off and do pre ferments. Building up in two or more feeds to how much I need.
When the tub in the fridge runs low I'll take it out, bring it to room temperature and give it a good feed. When it has fed about a third in a few hours I'll return it to the fridge so it has still plenty of supply and can last a long time. And the process starts again.
This is a good way of ensuring you don't make a mistake and use all your starter or some accident happens like dropping it on the floor. It's separate from your preferment. It also prevents you from building too much so you won't have to discard.
hi Abe thank you. Yes, this is what I want to do. When you do the pre-ferments I assume you mean you feed it a couple of times before you use it? Do you feed every 12 hours or some shorter period?
Say a recipe calls for 150g of levain at 100% hydration here is an example of what I'll do (but by no means the only way)
Build one (night before)
Take 16g from the starter in my fridge and feed it 17g water + 17g flour. 12 hours later I'll have 50g of active levain. Then next morning...
Build Two (day of bake)
I'll feed that 50g of levain with 50g water + 50g flour then 5-6 hours later (quicker and stronger this time) I'll have 150g of active levain.
But note: you only have to catch as close to the correct time as you can the build you put into your recipe. If you go a bit over on the first build and it falls this isn't a problem as it's still getting two consecutive feeds not too far apart.
Or I could do this...
Say a recipe tells you to do a preferment of :
50g starter + 100g flour + 90g water
I'll build the 50g then go onto the build asked for in the recipe taking into account it might be quicker as I'm adding mature starter.
Everybody has a system. Here's mine.
b
Yes, I know that the common wisdom is to feed your starter in preparation for starting your recipe with it. I do that most of the time. But, sometimes, and with no advance planning, I take my unfed starter out of the fridge, where it's been for a week, and use it for a recipe. I've never had a failure with this method. I figure that it's a culture of growing thingies that live at a lower temperature less energetically than at a higher temperature but nevertheless live. So, even though the starter's not so obviously alive as it is when it's all frothy, it neverthess contains the microbes I need for my bread. Sometimes, when I do it this way, I worry that the bulk rise will take a little longer so I put the dough into a warmish oven. Again, I've never had a failure doing this. If I'm doing it wrong I'd expect that after over a decade I'd see a failure at least once.
I fully agree with the comment above that you'll find a lot of opinions about the ins and outs of feeding a starter culture. I wonder what a microbiologist would say about all of these opinions.
maintain a starter as there are bread recipes:-) here's mine The No Muss, No Fuss Starter
No Muss No Fuss Starter
Why not repeat it?: there are many ways to use starter and to maintain starter, and each caregiver's way is the absolute best. I feed my starter twice a day everyday, because I bake 3-4 times each week and I use the extra starter to make injera several times a week as well. Nothing ever gets wasted; it's a system that I've found that works for me. I've only been on this system for a couple of months now.
Before, I stored my starters in the fridge. Depending on what I wanted out of my bread, I would either feed it at warmer temperatures 2-3 times before preparing a dough (if I wanted to encourage yeast and lactic acid development); or, I would use starter straight from the fridge (if I wanted a more acidic starter component to the mix). The temperature at which your starter ferments will affect the different populations of yeast and bacteria, as the diversity of microorganisms allows for different ones to flourish in different conditions; that is, there will always be a certain level of activity in the starter (until you send it into the deep-freeze . . . see the film "Demolition Man" for a more thorough explanation of this phenomenon), but some activity is more visible, some is more smell-able, taste-able, feel-able, etc.
If you are baking but once a week, the night before you mix the dough, you can remove the starter from the fridge, use half of it to make a levain, and then "feed" the other half to maintain a "mother." Obviously, one can enter into an infinity of nuances of process in the pursuit of a more tailored product, but the above structure will allow you to get to know your starter and better predict its reactions.
Most importantly, ENJOY YOURSELF! And keep on baking! If you screw up, you can always start over again, with or without the King Arthur starter. Just good ol' flour and water has never failed me, and Albertine (my current starter) has never made any complaints.
Thank you all very much! I have read all the comments and all the links and all the comments attached to the links. It is nice to know there is no hard and fast rule. Also it appears we will have to come up with a name.
The main reason I am making these breads is that the fermentation supposedly makes the spelt flour more digestible for my husband. So I am looking for the method that will convert as much of the spelt starch as possible. In the post above, lepainSamidien, you wrote:
Depending on what I wanted out of my bread, I would either feed it at warmer temperatures 2-3 times before preparing a dough (if I wanted to encourage yeast and lactic acid development); or, I would use starter straight from the fridge (if I wanted a more acidic starter component to the mix).
The bread I am making has an overnight proofing in addition to a 6 hour proofing after shaping. To maximize fermentation, I am thinking I should start with a warmer starter. Does that sound right?
"Maximizing" fermentation is a difficult idea, and with spelt even a dangerous one. As the gluten is spelt is much more delicate than that found in traditional wheat, spelt does not tolerate longer fermentations quite as well (cf. Robertson's Tartine Book No. 3). At what temperatures are your fermentations taking place? As long as the fermentation proceeds slowly at lower temperatures, the spelt should not push the dough to ferment itself right out of a nice structure. However, too warm of a temperature could have a negative effect. Much also depends on how much spelt you are using in the bread.
But to go back to the concept of maximizing fermentation, it's rather a question of what conditions you are creating which will allow for the generation of certain byproducts of fermentation, dependent upon said conditions. That's to say, it's not so much about the quantity of fermentation but the quality of fermentation, and not in the good/bad kind of way, but more in the sense of how is a bread fermenting (its texture, taste, structure, etc.). Unfortunately, it's a more difficult determination to make and one that requires no small amount of practice, patience, and the best two teachers in the world of bread-making: success and failure.
Try using a warm starter and see how the fermentation is progressing, and then try using a cold one on the next batch. See how they each go and which one you like better, works better with your schedule, etc. It's an inexact science, which is to say that it's not a science at all, and that's what I love about it. Here, we begin to enter into the domain of art!
This is only my second loaf but I am doing a 1 hr hydration, 4 stretch and folds at 30 min intervals, an overnight rest in the refrigerator (it's still in there), then shaping and proofing for 4-6 hours before baking.
In the process of looking for answers for the question you posed (optimum temp to use starter), I came across this comment that Debra Wink made to one of her posts. It made me think that I should take my starter out of the fridge and let it hang out on the counter for a couple of weeks before going back to the refrigerator for long term storage. However, my starter came from an established commercial starter, and not a homemade one which I think is what she is referring to. So I am not sure this would apply to my starter:
In the most current literature that I have read, Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis is considered to be the most common LAB found in type I starters---those maintained by continuous refreshment at room temperature (like they are in bakeries). I think it takes a couple weeks at room temp after getting a new starter up and running, before Lb. sanfran. gets going, so I'm doubtful that it would be in one that is refrigerated right away. There was a paper done about population dynamics in starters under different sets of conditions. Unfortunately it didn't include any starters kept below warm room temperature, so I can't say with any certainty that L.s. persists in refrigerated starters. But I imagine it would have a better chance in starters that are refreshed regularly and allowed to spend a refreshment cycle or two out of the refrigerator each time
are stronger and will last longer between feeds. When my starter became viable and I was able to make bread I carried on feeding it for a further week then petered off. Now it just sits in the fridge till it needs replenishing.
When I replenish I don't allow it to completely feed at room temperature before putting back in the fridge (i.e. the stage where one uses it as a levain) because at this stage it has run out of food and will begin to starve. Rather, I allow to to feed for a few hours so it is active and fed about a 1/4 to a 1/3rd then put it back in the fridge so it has reserves.
Rye is good for a starter as it needs less TLC than other flours. Lends itself well to starters and keeps better.
Don't bog yourself down too much with what's going on under the microscope.
Over time I've discovered two very important things about starters:
Keep the mother in the fridge and if I only need what's in it, then I use it directly, else I take some to bulk up to use that later that day.
This method has worked for me for a few years now and I currently bake 6 days a week some 60 loaves. Usually Tuesday and Thursday are small spelt days and on those days I use Spelt directly from the fridge, and depending on what else, wheat is used directly (this is on the Monday or Wednesday evenings when I knead the dough)
I almost always bulk up the Rye before use though - but only because if I keep enough in the fridge, it overflows when I top it up and makes a mess in the fridge and I don't want to use a bigger jar. (I can make a single one of my dark rye breads without a bulking stage though)
There is no single right way to do it. You'll see people here doing it many different ways, each saying this is the way that works for them - so obviously there are many ways that work, so find one that fits in with the way you want to bake.
-Gordon