February 5, 2015 - 7:53am
Non-wheat sourdough breads
Hi all,
Up till now i've been a silent reader of this great bread database.. Now it's time for a question.
I've recently started making non-wheat sourdough loaves, using whole rye and spelt flours only. Obviously the dough is much waterier and sticky, and the loaves flatter and denser. Right now I'm streching and folding my current dough every 30 minutes, in hope for some improvement.
So- If you guys have any tips on how to get better textures and rise without using wheat flour- you'll be saving my loaves and guaranteeing yourselves a place in bread heaven.
Thanks!
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Rye to Spelt?
and the general ratio is (in standard cup size):
1.5 cup starter (100% hydration)
3 cups rye
3 cups spelt
1 tablespoon salt
water- by eye..
I think a big part of the answer will be hydration and salt. Now I work in grams. Your recipe converted is...
Rye: 306g
Spelt: 345g
Salt: 15g
Well first of all there's far too much salt. Will prevent yeast action. So reduce the salt by half. 1.5 - 2% of flour = 6.5g. One teaspoon is about 5 - 6g.
Now you don't give an exact hydration but i'd do 90% for the rye and 65% for the spelt = 500g (2 cups)
When trying to make a proper dough out of a rye bread, or a bread with such high rye percentage, you'll be making it too dry. It'll probably work better as a no-knead bread (an educated guess as I've never done this mix before).
I think create the starter. Add the water and mix till fully dispersed. Add the flours with salt already mixed in. Mix into very shaggy dough. Pour into loaf tin and go straight into final proofing. When very small holes appears on top and it just crowns the top of the tin then ready to bake in pre-heated oven.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/33328/minis-100-dark-rye-chia-recipe-love-104-hydration
You might find some interesting tips and tricks in there. (ok, I'm blowing my own horn. :) (toot toot)
You can easily sub out part of the rye for spelt flour just hold back some of the water while mixing. Can always add if needed. Don't forget to look at the second page.
Also run a site search for Rye and Spelt bread. You will run into a lot of recipes and loaves.
You can also click on my name and check out my bookmark list. Might find some nice reads in there as well. I love to bake with rye and spelt. (I think they like each other.)
Mini
i'll try reducing the salt and changing the flour and water ratios. but as i'm a sourdough rookie, what do you mean (abe) by:
"i'd do 90% for the rye and 65% for the spelt = 500g (2 cups)" -is that 2 cups each?
and mini- thanks for the correction. i guess you have more accurate definitions than I do ;) I was just told to drop regular and whole wheat, and use only rye and spelt.
Bring it down to 1 teaspoon. Salt is there to control the yeast buy too much inhibits the yeast.
Just reread my first reply and it's not clear...
Rye flour works well at a 90% hydration and will be like a thick cake batter, not a dough.
Spelt works well at around 65% hyhydration, give or take, and is more like a dough.
But you've done a mix so I worked out 90% hydration for the rye and 65% hydration for the spelt you've used and came to 2 cups.
Since the rye is 50% of the recipe I think you'll get a sloppy dough so simply mix the ingredients and do one proof in a loaf tin.
If you had an all rye bread and you tried to make a dough out of it it'd turn out like a brick. This is 50/50 (which I haven't done) so I imagine it should be treated like a rye.
So 2 cups of water and one teaspoon of salt.
Now I've I work by weight only so had to Google the conversions and hope I'm correct. It's difficult when not working by weight as 1g flour to 1g water is 100% hydration. But same volume doesn't work.
I suggest you invest in an electronic kitchen scale.
is to divide the weight of the water by the weight of the flour. (then multiply by 100 to get the %.)
YOUR RECIPE:
1.5 cup starter (100% hydration)
3 cups rye
3 cups spelt
1 tablespoon salt
water- by eye..
Now to convert this to weight...
(I had to Google this)
Rye: 306g
Spelt: 345g
Salt: 15g
Now to work out hydration...
90% of 306g = 275g
65% of 345g = 224g
Total = 499g which I think is 2 cups water (but check up on that)
Now for the salt...
Salt should be 1.5 - 2% of added flour
Total rye + spelt = 651g
So 1.5 - 2% of 651g = 9.5g - 12g
1 teaspoon of salt is about 6g
So use 1.5 teaspoons - 2 teaspoons
Spelt at 65% hydration is pretty wet. I would figure 50% hydration with the spelt. (Don't you just love me???)
Looks like there is a tad more spelt than rye in the recipe if cups are used. ((danger zone, if you ask me)) Better to push the rye up to 60% and treat the dough as a rye than to be somewhere between handling it as a rye or a wheat.
(and apparently i have lots to learn about hydration rates and ratios- mini, thanks for the formula:))
thanks abe for bothering and converting the ingrediants to grams! I actually have a digital scale but i've got so used to weighing with cups (mom's recipe), and up till now it turned out okay. but it looks like i'll have to start using it.
I'll try working with the 499 g water amount in my next mix. and perhaps add more rye if that doesn't work.
hope to bring back photos :)
Don't forget 100% hydration is equal amounts of flour and water by weight! So when you say a 100% hydration starter I hope we're on the same page.
Step one: prepare your starter or preferment preferment. When mature go onto step two....
Step Two: Combine active starter plus water and stir till evenly distributed.
Add flour with salt mixed in.
Combine till very shaggy dough is formed.
Pour into a correct size loaf tin and pat down.
Wait till proofed. Either tiny holes will start to appear or will just form a dome cresting the top of the tin. Might take a few hours but keep an eye on it.
Bake in preheated oven.
Looking forward to photos.
will do!