Autolysis: Incorporating the salt after an autolysis period
Quick question about the Autolyse stage and salt.
After a flour + water + starter autolyse, what are some effective ways to incorporate the salt into the dough?
My dough development involves vary little kneading/mixing.
Hydration is anywhere from 65-75%. Usually about 50% whole wheat.
All by hand, mix in large ceramic bowl just until there are no dry spots.
Autolyse for 45 minutes. Flip in bowl and continue autolyse for another 45 mins.
At which point I've done a few things.
1. Sprinkle salt with gentle stretch and folds until salt granules no longer visible in surface.
Rest, and proceed with fermentation with stretch and folds every 45mins.
After the third stretch and folds, I'm noticing a few coarse pieces of salt but, my issue is with the salt that doesn't get incorporated into the dough. The salt on my hands and sides of the bowl.
so i tried to...
2. Make a paste with salt and small parts water and flour and incorporate it overtime just the same (S&F).
It turned out like cement because the salt never really dissolved in the water and there wasn't quite enough flour to make it smooth.
This paste initially didn't seem very evenly distributed throughout the dough structure but, after the third stretch and folds, there wasn't any noticeable salt deposits..
Still, it didn't seem to sit right.
I haven't tried to...
3. Reserve enough water to dissolve the salt and enough flour to make a paste (perhaps the same hydration as the dough) After autolyse period, incorporate this paste into the dough and proceed with fermentation stages.
I might try this third option next but, I was looking for other thoughts on this matter.
Keep in mind, I am limited to hand mixing techniques and I am ideally kneading the dough as little as possible.
My concerns are that the salt is not being incorporated enough and possibly even sticking to my hands or the bowl instead of the dough.
Perhaps my autolysis is too long and the dough is becoming too uniform before adding salt?
The bread has been great, just looking to tune up my bread making process so things run more smoothly.
Any help is greatly appreciated.
Thanks crew!
to get the salt in evenly afterwards - as you're seeing.
What I've done in the past is to hold back a little water and dissolve the salt in it - powder the salt if possible or use a very fine salt rather than large crystals. Take the autolysed dough, spread it out on the counter into a big rectangle then poke holes into it with fingers like making focaccia, then spread the salt water over this as evenly as possible. Roll the dough up, then turn it quarter turn and roll it again, stretching it back out into a sausage shape (so half way down the 2nd roll you have a T shape) Repeat this 4-5 times - ie. roll into a long sausage shape, turn, roll it again, pull out, etc. This is actually similar to my usual kneading technique anyway.
However you really need a good mechanical mixer to make sure it's properly incorporated as part of the kneading process and this is what I use for all my autolysed dough now.
-Gordon
My understanding of autolyse is it is only water and flour. Add salt and starter/preferment later.
I'm not sure if that is the correct interpretation, but that's how I do it. With that said I use a Kitchen Aid to mix and knead my dough...so...I'm not sure that helps you.
Mike Avery mixes his dough manually by sticking his hand into the bowl and pinching, so my speculation is that you could autolyse with just water and flour, then add the preferment and salt later, and then mix manually like Mike.
-Dave
Add the salt and knead till evenly incorporated.
Every time you stretch and fold it'll incorporate even more. If the dough is high hydration then even easier.
Or you can hold back 20g of water. Then when you add the salt just follow it with the 20g of water and squeeze the dough till fully incorporated. I used to do it this way but don't have any trouble really just sprinkling it on top and kneading.
Philip,
You didn't say what grind of salt you are using, but from your post I'm guessing it's a coarse grind akin to or actually Kosher salt.
I mix flour, water and IDY or sourdough levain at the outset, and let it rest at least 45 mins. Chilled dough I rest for 1 hour. I use a semi-coarse grind sea salt--i.e., smaller flakes than Kosher salt, bigger than table salt--and I sprinkle it over the ball of dough at the end of mixing.
I originally did this to help me not forget to add the salt. (I did that once, Blah! Tasteless bread.). Later, I found an article about the USA baking team wherein they do precisely the same thing. I figured if it's good enough for them, I'd continue the practice. The salt is "slushy" by the end of rest period.
Subsequently, I do one of three things depending on the dough I'm making. I machine knead it, I fold it in its bowl using a bowl scraper, or I go straight to S&F's (3 or 4 with rest in-between) In every case the salt is incorporated by the end of the 1st S&F.
All lean doughs I make get S&F'ed regardless of how I initially treat it; i.e. machine-knead or bowl-fold.
If you are using a coarse grind salt, and you don't want to swap it for a finer ground salt grind it finer in a spice grinder or pound it smaller--folded in a towel--with a meat masher or simply a hammer.
David
P.S. Yes, I know I'm not doing a strict autolyse.
In his ISOthePerfectLoaf, Sam Fromartz frequently suggests his method of adding salt, a slight variation on the standard "hold back 50 ml water to help salt dissolve after autolyse" (cf. Robertson, et al.). At the start of autolyse, he says he pokes a hole in the dough, drops in the salt and pours in the water. During the autolyse, the salt (more or less) dissolves but only impairs the strictly Clavel autolyse along the hole's 'walls'.
Sounded clever, so I've tried it a couple of times, but I find the hole fills back in before I can get all the salt in. Then most of the held back water goes everywhere but the hole. So I'm back to my usual sprinkle salt over the surface, then sprinkle the held back water, all after autolyse period is complete.
Fromartz has some other interesting technical and other insights that I'll probably forget before I get around to pointing them out in a TFL post <sigh>.
Tom
Just a thought - I've not tried it yet.
autolyse is no salt and no levain - just flour and water. Once you add levain it is fermenting not autolysing, What I do is after the flour and water ar mixed into a ball for the autolyse period. I take course pink Himalayian sea salt and crush it finely in my mortar and just sprinkle it on top of the sutolyse ball. This does two things for me., I don't forget the salt and the salt melts from the water in the autolyse dough ball making the salt easy to mix in once the levain hits the mix. A minute of slap and folds and the salt is all incorporated and so is the levain. By the time the other two sets of slap and folds and 3 sets of stretch and folds are done - no worrie- and the gluten is perfectly developed,.
If the recipe calls for a liquid levain that contains a significant portion of the dough's water, the liquid levain is usually mixed into the autolyse as well. Not a hard and fast rule but certainly more effective than trying to hydrate the flour with just a fraction of the water.
Paul
Calevel mentions at some point that the pf can be added if it's a short autolyse and it would just give s kick start to fernentation. More important is the salt which would compete for water and slow the process of the autolyse. So while technically yes it's just flour and water. you can still get the benefits with the levain but must keep the autolyse short.
but but back to the point I find squeezIng the salt through with a bit of water until you can't feel the salt any longer the best way by hand. Takes 3-5 minutes depending on the dough. You do want all the salt well incorporated before beginning the bulk ferment.
Josh
Josh,
Do you happen to know where Calvel describes this autolyse process? The reason I ask is that I have been driving myself slightly nuts (yes, yes, not a drive, a short putt) looking for a description of the technique in Calvel's own words. That would mean in the original - not the translation - of "Le Gout du Pain."
I've worked with the individual who did the translation of the book above, and he is an advocate of "put the liquid pre ferment in the autolyse." I also know he did make some additions to the original book based on Calvel's input. But if you find it in the translation, maybe I can make a better search of the original.
Yes, you don't want to leave the thing too long. For most professional bakers, tying up a mixer for a long period of time is problematic and hand mixing the autolyse and transferring it to the mixer also has its issues. As we know, Calvel wrote for professional bakers - not home bakers.
Also, working with the individual mentioned above, he advocated adding salt to very long autolysis - and recounted that Calvel did, also. Which is interesting.
But if you can tell me where this technique is described, it would be very helpful. I've searched and searched and cannot find it. (I can find a lot of information on fava bean flour, though...)
Thanks for any help!
Pat
You know the author why don't you just get on the horn and get this figured out yourself??? :)
Kidding.
I don't own the book myself I borrowed from the library for a couple months and remember reading through a section where he mentions it being okay. I can't quote him but I fondly remember him saying that if you add the yeast/preferment it would simply give fermentation a head start. And was not a problem.
I don't believe the act of fermentation hinders the process of a short autolyse. The enzymatic process and hydration of flour still occurs. The real problem would happen over a longer period of time as fermentation would break down the flour and therefor gluten, negating the developing effect it has.
Salt on the other hand plays a much more significant role in a short autolyse as it will compete for water and slow the enzymatic pre-ferment drastically. Hence the use of salt in a long autolyse. It keeps the extended enzymatic pre-ferment in check. So a 12 hour autolyse with salt is probably little different from a 1-4 hour autolyse without salt.
I generally autolyse the "classic" way, that is just flour and most of the final dough water. Even when using liquid pre-ferments, unless it contains too much of the dough's water. That's because I autolyse at least 1 hour and up to 4 hours. I've only experimented with longer autolyse a few times and salted it. I found no improvements from it compared to a the latter. So unless it really worked for scheduling, which someday it may, I don't bother with it.
Sorry I've ranted and you know all this stuff. To finalize it wasn't really a technique but maybe just a sentence in the book where he mentions adding the PF to the autolyse and that it wouldn't be of concern in a short phase. And from my recollection most of the autolyse phases in the book are 20 minutes.
Cheers
Josh
I do have access to the individual, but, you know - sheer cussedness...
Actually, thanks for the little rant. Yes, I do know these things, but it gives me great comfort and joy to know that someone else does and to get input from other sources. I see so much "folklore" on these pages, it is nice to exchange with knowledgeable people.
Still tweaking on the chocolate baguettes. I had a version that was getting raves, but then I thought of a way to "kick it up." One's reach must exceed one's grasp - or what's a heaven for...
Thanks.
Pat
forgot about the chocolate baguettes. Well what's the final kick up? I really like the simplicity of the cocoa tradition I make but I most certainly want to try the formula you come up with.
It turns out that there is a ton of variation on technique and ideologies regarding what good bread is and the practices in making it. I mean how many bakeries are out there now essentially making the "Tartine" bread using all the same techniques and formulas Chad has shared through books and videos online. And then call it their own. I guess what I'm saying is there are many more less practiced bread bakers out their now than their used to be. But they only have that one good trick. In many cases that's more than enough. But I love learning the tricks. I think I've learned to shape bread about 10 different ways. I'm better at a few but have tried and succeeded with at least 10 styles. Ranting again....
Cheers
Josh
I think that's what I tried to convey in my last blog - the more different ways you know how to do things - the more broad the knowledge - the better. Maybe it all doesn't show up in the taste of the bread - maybe it shows up in the quality of your life.
Anyway, my current kick up was inspired by your formula. I added rye. But not just rye - 2% of chocolate malt rye. ground fine as part of the total flour.
I think the taste is the best so far. The texture took a hit, but I can fix that...
I sense that I am only 2 or 3 versions away.
Pat
I am new to baking, and my reading has demonstrated to me that I'm very much a "product of my time" when it comes to hydration and mixing techniques. I definitely see higher hydration and the "stretch and fold" method far more frequently in books and articles written after 2000 or so. I almost never knead, and I find that any dough lower than 76% hydration feels tough and unmanageable. Maybe because I started out with higher hydration as my baseline, I've never had a real problem with hand-incorporation of salt after autolyse. I use relatively fine kosher salt and some mix of the "pincer" and much less refined "just squeeze it a whole lot and then slap it against the walls of the bowl a few times" methods, with good results. But I think that this would be much harder with a 65% hydration dough.
And I know that this question has come up on TFL more than once before, but I do think I'm in the camp that views the true autolyse as not including yeast/preferment of any kind. But the question of whether to include levain in a short autolyse for an SD loaf seems to me to depend on what you think the main purpose of the autolyse is. If it's really important to you to have the water and flour meet and hang out and start forming the gluten network without intervention of fermentation, then you should leave out the levain even in the case of that short autolyse. If it's more important to you to let the fermentation/gluten development to get going without the inhibition of salt, then maybe you're alright mixing in the levain along with the flour and water.
I have been experimenting with super-long autolyse in SD loaves with a range of flours (from all white to mostly wheat and/or rye) with really encouraging results. The only time I found it difficult to incorporate the levain and salt after the very long autolyse was the time I refrigerated the flour/water mixture for 12 hours. I thought I'd never get it to come together smoothly! 12 hours at room temperature, and it's all good. I actually kind of like the post-autolyse incorporation stage. Helps me relieve some of the day's stress.
when I was autolyzing my dough, I held back a small amount of the water, threw the salt into the food processor and turned it into extra an extra fine powder (Mrs. Boule calls it her popcorn salt, because it works so well on her second favorite snack). Then while the dough is autolyzing, warm the water to no higher than 100 degrees F, shake the water and popcorn salt in a spray bottle until completely dissolved then I spray the dough, do one stretch and fold, spray, repeat until done. The bread was properly seasoned without any bland or salty spots.
I know the purpose of autolyse is for the flour to soak up the water and when the levain is added it is fermenting however do you mean to tell me that as soon the levain is added the flour won't soak up anymore water?
I imagine the flour continues to "autolyse" throughout the process.
Of course the process called "autolyse" is strictly just flour and water so to call it autolyse might technically be wrong. But incorporating a rest before adding salt, by any other name, will also help the flour to soak up water.
Before the "name" is taken i'm calling it an "Abelyse".
It's about gluten 'development' more than just wetting the flour. The idea is that if you leave it alone with flour and water then various enzymes (in the flour) will start working and the gluten will be better prepared for some stretching/kneading later on. Adding yeasts change the enzyme balance and start to do their own work (CO2 bubbles stretching the gluten, even in almost microscopically at that point) and in-theory diminish the autolyse process - however from my own breads, adding in a slow-acting sourdough ferment barely changes anything that I can detect. (at least in the 20-30 minute autolyse periods I use). (And the hydration is all wonky without the starter anyway)
Salt changes things drastically (relatively speaking), so it's best left out until ready to knead/stretch&fold, etc. I leave (dried) yeast out too if using that in the recipe and add it in, knead a little, then add in the salt and finish the kneading.
-Gordon
As it's wetting the flour that makes it happen :)
Just joshing. Thank you for that.
I've had a bit of a problem in gluten development when making bread. Always under judging it. Now i'm improving but will definitely incorporate an autolyse every time from now on. See if that helps.
...is that when the flour and water are mixed the gluten begins to develop *without kneading.stretching.*
By adding the preferment, it is possible the wee beasties will 1) eat the gluten, or 2) their waste products will weaken the gluten.
-Dave
Two ends of the same process. Giving the flour time to soak up the water which in turn breaks down the enzymes resulting in gluten formation and starch. This makes the sugars more readily available in the dough.
(just looked that up now)
Gives me a whole different perspective now.
Wow,this discussion has answered my questions I had since a while but never took the time to post it. Thanks to all who participated. The technique I have used up till now (I think I will stick with it): I mix the pf (125%) with the water and the flour, do a 30 min (obviously not classic) autolyze, sprinkle the salt on top then use the mixer a few minutes to incorporate it. But my question always was: how do I best incorporate the salt by hand. I am in the process to make the oat meal sourdough bread according to the formula of dabrownman and will incorporate the salt by hand.
First: the formula I am using is from txfarmer, an adaption from Laurel's Kitchen Bread book (which I love too). I will do an autolyse with just the soaker and the flour first. According to the formula the soaker has already all the salt in it: how would that affect the autolyse? I will cook the oats and let sit over night. Is it necessary to add the salt to the porridge?
Only a True Scotsman has salt in their porridge!
-Gordon
(a True Scotsman)
I've read somewhere that a 2 hour Autolyse is best
Autolysation came about when the French bread took a turn for the worst and this was only 30-40 years ago from what I gather. I suspect it may have been a similar issue to what the British faced after WW2 with an increasing population and low gluten local wheat and hard to import Canadian at the time - the British employed heavy mechanisation and developed the Chorleywood Bread Process, then French a more rustic approach. (my guessing)
At that time, Prof. Calvel researched the subject and as I understand it (I've not studied his book in any detail whatsoever!) the 20 minute period was the best compromise between being effective and not taking up too much time in existing commercial bakerys. I suspect too that it's one of those laws of diminishing returns - 20 minutes gets you the 90% solution and would be acceptability in the bakery time-wise, but each additional 20 minutes is only adding 1% more "goodness" to the process (numbers made up, but you get the drift - someone correct me if I'm way off mark, please)
At home, making bread for ourselves and friends, we have the luxury of being able to take as long as we want (within reason!)
However right now, I have a kilo of my finest stoneground wholemeal soaking until 9pm when I'll add yeast & salt and turn the mixer on and knead it - but that's only because I made up the flours for tonights bread mix for tomorrows bake an hour or so ago and not because I deliberately wanted to autolyse it for several hours... That's the only batch of dough I'll autolyse today, although I have some white sourdoughs to make too and if I get the wholemeal out of Major Tom then I'll give the white 20 minutes with its sourdough & water before turning it on. I have 3 other batches of dough to mix and I really don't want to add another hour to the process...
-Gordon
Since you say are making bread with "50% whole wheat" the easiest way to add salt after the autolyse is to **keep back a small portion of your commercial bread flour from the autolyse**, About 1&1/2 to 2 cups white flour in reserve should be sufficient.
step 1 - reserve a portion of the bread flour prior to autolyse
step 2 - stir in the salt into your reserved flour
step 3 - autolyse as normal
step 3 - after autolyse is done, add the reserved flour + salt mixture to the dough and mix/knead it in.
I also make bread that has about 50% whole grain flour, and I find this method the easiest way to incorporate the salt at the end of the autolyse.
Hope this is is helpful - SF
I use the same general process to incorporate salt (post-autolyze) and oil (for my rosemary olive oil), and salted soakers. All the water goes in the initial mix. Then I sprinkle the add-in over the dough, and go all Stooges on it -- finger pokes, all the way to the bottom, while rotating the bowl. Nyuk-nyuk-nyuk is optional.
I figure absorption only happens at the interface, so radically increasing the surface area will get it incorporated faster. After a minute of poking, my dough mass looks like a 9kg brain (in a good way!); let it rest for a couple of minutes so the salt moistens, and fold until it evens out. The poking looks violent, but it doesn't seem to toughen the dough up, so the subsequent folds don't overdevelop it.
Like Tchebichev's Inequality, a statistical Rule that assures the observer that a certain proportion of results sought can be expected within a certain range, similar to the 66-95-97.5 rule. So when somebody mentions 80/20 they are referring to pretty solid stuff. I just don't know about successively applying it to the remainder -- in any event it's going to be infinite diminishing returns.