The Fresh Loaf

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More Failed Sourdough!

anshaw's picture
anshaw

More Failed Sourdough!

Hi!

 

I was hoping to get some advice on my bread baking! I posted recently, but have altered some of my methods, but still I am not getting the loaves I hope for. My current set up is as follows:

 

Recipe:

  • 900g White Flour
  • 100g Wholemeal Flour
  • 200g Levain (mature sourdough starter)
  • 20g Salt
  • 730ml water. 

 

Process (primarily following a modified Tartine bread recipe by Chad Robertson):

  1. 40 minute autolyze
  2. 4 hour bulk rise, two turns per hour for the first two hours, then one turn p ter hour for the remaining two hours.
  3. Preshape, then bench rest for 40 minutes.
  4. Final shape, then final proof for 45 minutes. 
  5. Bake in dutch oven for 30 minutes lid on, then 30 minutes lid off at 230C.

 

Following advice from last time, I tried to get more strength into my dough by turning my vigourously in the first 4 turns and to proof much less (i've cut it down by 2 hours!). It passes the finger poke test to my estimation (see video!), but still I am dissatisfied for a few reasons. Firstly, the loaves do not develop ears. Secondly, there is not too much oven spring, so the loaves are quite squat and unattractive. Thirdly, the loaves have irregularities, almost as if some parts have collapsed, leaving indentations on the top.

Video of poke test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpcEnGoLS_Y&feature=youtu.be

Photos: http://imgur.com/a/y2Vnj#0

Any advice? The current technique by Tartine Bread might not be working out for me. I've baked over 15 loaves with this recipe and cannot seem to get it right!

I have a few ideas of where I might be going wrong.

  • Firstly, my first loaf was the super-mishapen one which was quite dense. The second loaf went in 30 minutes after the first, and had a little bit more of an open crumb and was more dome-shaped and less misshapen. So maybe I need to leave it 30 more minutes or more to my final proof time. Have I underproofed, or overproofed?
  • Secondly, I have been scoring in a square shape. Perhaps I might have been able to avoid that large air bubble in the top if i scored a different pattern.

Thank you!

golgi70's picture
golgi70 (not verified)

Well first I'll ask what type of flours you are using?  I'm guessing maybe you are using a weak variety.  

Also 30 minutes for final proofing is seems way too short.  This formula is developed for an overnight final rise in a retarder.  More strength is gained during this time and if your going to switch to the direct method you'd need to make a few more changes.  First of which would be to use more starter which will add more strength to the dough.  This would decrease the bulk ferment timing as well. 

Example:  

Double your amount of levain (20% pre-fermented flour)  Aim for a warm dough around 80F.  Reduce the bulk ferment to 2:30 with 3 folds after 20,40, and 60 minutes.  Then if it seems weak another fold @ 1:45 but only if needed.  Fermentation itself will add strength.  Then divide and round, rest 20 minutes, shape.  Proof will probably be 1:30-2:00.  

Alternately you can stick with the same regime but decrease the rest after preshape to 30 minutes max.  Then retard after forming for 12-18 hours.  

You can see in the picture that the shaping of one is what caused it's dip in the center.  Also the lost top after such a short proof suggests shaping errors as well.  Many videos on youtube to help you there.  You don't want to degas but you also don't want to leave gaps in the shape, get a good seal, and good tension.  

Hope this is helpful

Josh

anshaw's picture
anshaw

Hi Josh, thanks for the reply.

 

The flour I am using is Waitrose Leckford Estate strong white flour and Shipton Mill Wholemeal flour. Is there any other flours I should try?

I am keen to hit the nail on the head on this next bake, so how about this: 

Recipe:

  • 900g White Flour
  • 100g Wholemeal Flour
  • 20g Salt
  • 730ml Water
  • 300g Levain

Process:

  1. 40 min autolyze
  2. 4 hour rise, 3 turns in the first two hours, then 1 per hour subsequently 
  3. Preshape, then bench rest for 25 minutes.
  4. Final shape, then overnight retard for 12 hours.
  5. Bake in dutch oven for 30 minutes lid on, then 30 minutes lid off at 230C.

Out of interest, what is the strategy behind those alterations? Is the problem one of underproofing, and not letting enough fermentation? I used to leave it overnight in the fridge, but I was worried that it might overproof.

golgi70's picture
golgi70 (not verified)

You've increased your levain but decided to final proof cold.  If your going to do the final proof cold I'd stick with your original formula (which reads pretty much like Tartine's Country Loaf to me).  With the long cold final rise you won't need the added starter.  That was a suggestion if you wanted to forgo the cold final proof.  

When you make a change in a formula, like the added 100g of levain above, you need to account for it.  So in this case you would have to decrease the final dough's flour and water by 50g each.  

Your flour sounds like it should work fine.  I was more concerned you might be using a very weak white flour.  This loaf is focused around a flour with 11.5% protein.  If anything your flour could be a bit strong but certainly not weak.  

The alterations:  

Well many were for a mix,shape, bake, in one day suggestions.  

The added levain would help add strength as well as flavor since it's a shortened fermentation cycle.  

The decreased bench rest was because 40 minutes is just too long a rest with the exception of cold bulk fermented dough.  You want to rest until the dough has relaxed and shows a bit of life again.  This is usually 20-30 minutes for naturally levained doughs.  

the decreased time for Bulk is because you have a higher amount of pre ferment and therefor the dough will ferment more quickly.  

The decreased folds for the same reasoning and the fold timing change because I feel it's best to do most of the folds earlier during the ferment cycle opposed to later when we are trying to retain gas and be a bit more gentle.  

A lengthier final proof as 30-45 minutes is just way too short a time for a sourdough loaf with 10% pre-fermented flour to be fully proofed.  

To a cold final proof was to see if that would solve most of your troubles without any formula changes.  This formula and process was certainly created for a cold final proof.  

Cheers and Happy Baking

Josh

Michael G's picture
Michael G

How mature is your starter?  

I agree with Josh about the final proof.  That is extremely short for sourdough.  

lepainSamidien's picture
lepainSamidien

Hiya anshaw,

It's hard to pinpoint exactly where your process is going "wrong," but I think that Josh has offered some great suggestions. While reading your recipe, I too was immediately struck by the 45-minute final proof, which seems possible for a bread made with commercial yeast, but pretty unfeasible for a good naturally leavened loaf, even with a slightly longer bench rest.

I would like to add a few possible culprits to the line-up, as well as ask some more specific questions with regard to your process.

First, a 40-minute bench rest seems excessive. Obviously, I can't tell exactly what your circumstances are, but I usually don't push a bench rest much past the 30-minute mark, otherwise it begins to spill a little bit, especially if the gluten is delicate (as it usually is for loaves à la Tartine). If you think your dough NEEDS that long of a bench rest, then it is likely that your pre-shape is too strong and involved. Just gently coax it into a round, and--as long as you're not living in the tundra--it should relax in less than a half-hour.

Second, I would like to add a caveat to one of Josh's prescriptions: "Fermentation itself will add strength." Absolutely correct, IF it is done correctly. The acidity from fermentation will help to strengthen the dough, but too much fermentation--which you risk by adding too much leaven--will compromise the integrity of the gluten bonds and generally yield puddly dough, which in turn yields hockey pucks. No fun for anyone. Regrettably, there is no hard, fast rule to determine when bulk fermentation is complete; it's a skill that one picks up after a lot of time working with his or her starter.

Lastly, I would inquire, like Michael G, into the condition of your starter; two questions specifically: what is your feeding regiment for your starter leading up to the bake? And how long after the final feeding do you add the leaven to the dough? (Note: I am using starter and leaven interchangeably; don't turn me in!). Both of these things influence the fermentation process immensely.

What's most important is that you stick with it and continue to make bread ! I can't tell you how many ugly loaves I've pulled from my oven even after years of working with sourdough. But eventually one finds a rhythm.

drogon's picture
drogon

There is a million and one ways to make sourdough breads and although I'm not a follower of the Tartine methods myself your method seems mostly ok (an hour in the oven though? wow) - I've never had the weird bumps on-top like you have though - however that's also a very wet dough (assuming a 100% hydration starter - just guessing here). If it is a 100% hydration starter then you have 730+100 = 830g of water and 1000 + 100 = 1100g of flour - the final hydration is 75%. I'm wondering if shaping is more of an issue here?

So my first suggestion would be to reduce the water - which might seem heresy in the land of wetter is better, but it might also make handling and shaping easier to start with. And more water means bigger holes and holes don't hold marmalade as someone said... You can always gradually bump up the water once you've got a good baseline to work from.

So less water and sleep on it ...

and by that I mean let the bulk ferment happen overnight while you're tucked up in bed dreaming of sourdough toast for breakfast... (in 2 days time)

So... Prepare the starter in the afternoon - take some mother and bulk it up by whatever way you like to get to the final quantity and let that "mature" for 5-6 hours. In the evening (lets say 9pm, as that's when I do it), you add the starter to the flour, salt and water, mix it in the bowl to the "shaggy" stage, turn it out and do that pushing it round the bench kneading thing, but hey, lifes too short, so 5 minutes is enough. Put it back in the bowl, and leave it covered overnight. Let the slow sourdough yeastie beasties do the work for you...

In the morning tip it out, scale it (if you need to), pre-shape it, leave it to rest on the bench while you get the bannetons out and dust them with flour, then shape and transfer into the bannetons and leave covered in a nice warm place (24C if you can) for 1-2 hours. Test at 1 hour and keep going for another hour, possibly more if you have the time.

Meanwhile get the oven hot - 250C if you can with a tray in the bottom also heating up. Heat up the dutch oven if you want to use it - I don't.

So when the dough has proven itself, get everything ready. Flip the banneton over to get the dough out - into the DO, or onto some parchment which you can transfer into the DO (or slide onto a flat baking sheet already in the oven, getting hot) A bold slash or 2, etc. then into the oven followed immediately by a cup of water into the tray at the bottom. (if not using a DO). 11 minutes at 250 then down to 210 for another 22 minutes. And there you go.

My favourite recipe has: 800g flour (500g white, 300g wholemeal), 320g active starter (at 100% hydration), 460g water and 12g salt. (And throw in a handful of seeds if you like - see: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/41469/end-packet-sourdough

That recipe makes 2 medium sized loaves.

-Gordon (gone 10pm here, going to bed soon, with 2 loads of dough slowly doing their overnight thing - spelt & 'granary' - they'll be 6 loaves in the shop by 9:30 tomorrow!)

ps. your flours are fine - won't mean anything to anyone not in the UK though, but they're good strong bread flours. I use Shipton Mill No 4 and wholemeal from my local mill in Devon.

aroma's picture
aroma

If you have access to a Waitrose store then try Waitrose Very Strong Canadian flour. It is superb and now it forms a large proportion of all my flour blends.  Just give it a go, I am sure you will notice a big difference.

anshaw's picture
anshaw

Hi Everything, 

 

Thank you for your amazingly helpful comments. Today is bake day, and I am currently into 2:30 the bulk rise period. The strategy I am going for is Josh's idea of keeping the same regimen but leaving it in the fridge overnight for a cold 12hr  final proof.

I'll post photos as I go along. Here are photos of the process so far!

Here they are: http://imgur.com/a/y6KFo#0

I think I have another good hour and a half to bulk rising time to go as its about 18 degrees C in this kitchen.