Slow-doughn (slow-down) sourdough...
Hey bakers, friends!
You guys have been great to me. This picture is just my second attempt at sourdough in the dutch oven. It works wonders for me and my family. Too much bread... is there such a thing?
I am about three weeks in to a sourdough frenzy. My starters are just about that old (three weeks), and I'm making sourdough bread for friends, for family, for co-workers and for dogs. Whoops!!! Someone left the bread out on the counter and maybe our puppy a very happy puppy.
ANyway, to the point! I have questions. Lot's of them. Currently I am without a scale which is fun but, can be a challenge. Also, my kitchen is often times below 60 F (it's one of those old-fashion basement kitchens complete with cold stone and unsealed corners). The winter draft has actually created the perfect environment for my bread making. Everything is moving slower, the dough is always cold until it hits the bottom of the dutch oven, and I realize that this variable will not hold up for long. Soon (hopefully) the house will be warm and my process will have to adapt.
The question I want to ask now, considering this cold-kitchen environment, is how can I use it to my advantage?
Is there anyone out there who has experimented with using less sourdough starter and allowing for a longer fermentation?
For example, I use about 1 cup of starter to 3 cups of bread flour (no scale yet, sorry) for a loaf of bread. Does anyone have any experience, perhaps, using less sourdough starter (making up for the weight with more flour/water) to achieve a longer, slower fermentation period?
I generally autolyse flour, water and starter for 1.5 hrs in my cool kitchen.
Then, sprinkle salt and start with stretch and folds (S&F) once when I add the salt, then two more times at 45min-1hr intervals (if I have the patience).
After my 3rd S&F I usually transfer the dough to a lightly oiled casserole dish so it can sort of spread and relax. By this time, anywhere from 3 to 4 hrs has passed. When the dough looks happy and rested, maybe 1/2hr or 1hr later (remember this is a cold kitchen, so I am going by observation) I will pick up the dough and set it on the counter. (Total elapsed time: 4.5 to 5 hrs) I do a careful stretch and fold, no pushing on the dough or pressure then flip it so the seam side is down and let rest for another 1/2hr. then I sprinkle a little flour on top and around the sides (very little flour, just enough to release some stick) and with my scraper, I slide it into the dough, working quickly, all around the dough. It's hard to describe what it is that i do, but basically the scraper shapes the dough for me instead of me doing it because my hands are too rough. Then this shaping rests for a 1/2hr, and then I will do the same thing: a little flour dusting and the scraper motion to create a nice and taught Boule shape then i flip it onto my hands and drop it inverted, bottoms up, into a proofing basket. I let proof (all the while, the dough has been in the same cold kitchen) for anywhere from 1-2hrs. In the mean time i will do a dance, a little jig, and preheat the oven and dutch oven.
In conclusion, the time that has elapsed from when i mixed the autolyse to final proof ready to bake, it has been about 8hrs at a consistently chilly temperature.
So... I don't find that the bread has over-proofed or under-fermented for that matter. The crust and crumb have been very satisfactory. The taste is slightly sour. Obviously, my starter needs to mature more, etc.
My inquiry is this: Can I use less starter in my dough and make up for it by allowing longer fermentation and proofing ? Does the sourdough starter work like that, or is there a certain percentage of starter you need to create a good bread. The extreme being: 2 tablespoons of starter to one loaf of bread, in which case the fermentation period would be a lot longer... Does this make sense? Does anyone have answers, comments, unrelated suggestions to the process I explained above...
Thanks guys, sorry for the long-winded post.
is where the flavor lies. I like to really push the limits and go for 5% of total flour weight
Currently am using 35g of starter for 700g flour and making a 100% rye like that today, mixed and left to ferment all day while i am at work, hope it works this way. I always like to use less and less . Have been told that going less than 5 % so any more than 1:20 in inoculation can destabilize the starter. In general bread made with less yeast will taste better so i guess its the same with SD
But yes when it comes to putting less and less yeast i have asked this qustion befre and not a lot of people willing to comment.
When you say 'destabilize the starter' I have an idea of what you mean but, perhaps you can elaborate on this.
My intuition tells me that if there are not enough wild yeast cultures, they will become too diluted in the dough and "overwhelmed". But what does that imply? Can they be overfed? Are they not assertive enough to gradually consume the dough?
You are getting at something that is very curious to me, I hope you have the time to expand.
Thanks
Exactly feeding it too much, i have done this and went up to 1:70 in inocluation (starter:flour). Have to say got very undersired/unconsistent results.
Now only stay at 10-20%, sometimes going down to 8% when im feeling adventruous. Only 100% Wholegrain when i bake so lots of moisture and sitting around for the flour to soak up all that water.
Some people ferment and or proof their dough in the fridge for a day 0r two Also generally, the longer the time the better the flavor. But like all things there is a limit when the dough can start to break down. In order for me to get a 24 hour cold proof in the fridge at 36 F, I use around 10% levain but if I was going to proof on the counter at 64 F in the winter, I might be at 20% levain If I am in a hurry and want better flavor I might use 30% levain since using a lot of levain can also improve the flavor of short ferments and proofs.
n the summer, when the kitchen isj 84 F, I will use 9- 10% levain for a 12 hour cold proof and skip the bulk ferment altogether since the dough will over proof in the fridge if i use a bulk proof on the counter. So it all depends on what you are trying to do to get the dough to fit your schedule.
Happ baking
Allowing for flexibility in your bread baking schedule is crucial for best results.
There is a tendency for me to feel anxious about moving on to the next step in the process. I've been able to curb this anxiety by making more, more bread, and experimenting with variables often.
These experiments are always very rewarding, and it is nice to be able to anticipate the growth of the dough so to speak. I found a happy medium at around 20% but, I will continue to drop that number lower to find the threshold.
However, The part that is difficult to grasp just from an observational standpoint, is what is the health of the dough? At what point has the flour/water inoculated sufficiently for optimal mineral absorption and digestion?
That is why I am curious about dropping the sourdough starter percentages.
I suppose you have to use your gut-feeling (literally) every time you eat the bread. Maybe this is getting a little bit off-topic but, this is the underlying reason why I am curious about slowing down the fermentation process (with less yeast culture, rather than colder temperature) and this is why I became interested in Sourdough.
ANyway, thanks so much for the insight and wisdom. Also, I got to peak at some of your posts and your bread looks absolutely delicious. I will definitely be referencing your portfolio.
salud
At the outset, let me say that I'll be referring to loaves with 40-100% white flour. Other flours that those on TFL explore are surely different animals!
If your starter is 100% hydration, then a cup of it probably weighs about 260 grams. From that, I am estimating that you are using levain at about 25% to 30% of your final dough (give or take for the non-levain hydration percentage).
I've experimented with levain/starter at many points between 5% and 30% of the total weight of the dough. It is definitely the case that that more levain used will lead to a shorter the fermentation time, less levain will extend the fermentation time (during bulk AND proof). I like the flavors I've found in the whole range, but the loaves created with 5% levain are definitely more complex. They can be more or less tangy, though, based on the amount of time fermenting at room temperature (for me, 70 degrees or so) vs. the amount of time left in the cold refrigerator.
I tend to do the same number of folds at the same intervals, whether I'm using 5% or 30%. When I use 5% levain, I stretch and fold at 20 or 30 minute intervals for 2 hours, then allow for about 10 hours more of room-temperature bulk fermentation (from there I might retard longer in the fridge, or shape immediately and do a room-temp proof, or shape and do a long proof, etc.). When I use 30% levain, I stretch and fold for 2 hours, then allow for only about 2 hours of room temperature bulk fermentation before shaping or retarding.
All of this said, some of my favorite breads have been 30% levain, short room temperature bulk, then loooong retard in the fridge (up to 90 hours!). That's a good way to add more complexity to the flavor of a bread that was made with a lot of levain. I have never been able to do a successful cold proof when the original dough contained any more than 15% levain.
In your cold kitchen, you could probably let a bread with 5% levain ferment at room temperature for 18-24 hours!
That sounds exciting. I will give it a try overnight.
I just got my kitchen scale so I will do a 5% levain ferment and check it @ 12 hrs, then continue to keep an eye on it. 24 hour room temp (60 degrees F) sounds compelling. I really have been using closer to 25% levain, so I imagine it would make quite a bit of difference at 5%.
Time will tell.
Thanks for the tips.
I use 40% starter in my sourdoughs.
So a typical mix would start with 64g of mother from the fridge, bulked up with 128g flour + 128g water to make 340g starter, that's then left in a warm place (22-24C) for 5-6 hours to get going. That's then added into 800g flour, (plus whatever else like water!) kneaded and left to ferment overnight for 9-10 hours at about 22C. Scale/shape/prove for 1-2 hours in the morning then into the oven. I have left it overnight for 12 hours in the past with no detrimental issues.
I do sometimes use the mother directly from the jar out of the fridge - especially if I've been out through the day and not had a chance to bulk some up (I keep about 500g in the jars in the fridge), so take 340g out of the jar, into the flour cold, make it up with warm water and off it goes. I haven't really noticed any difference and no-one who's ever bought my bread has ever said anything - which doesn't mean there isn't a difference - there may be, but maybe not enough for anyone to bother telling me...
-Gordon
When you bulk your starter to 340g compared to 340g of mother straight from the fridge, does either method take any longer (to ferment) than the other?
Just wondering.
-phil
I've not noticed a difference, but my initial ferments have always been in the 9-10 hour range in a nice warm place (about 22C) which tends to even just about everything out. Right now I'm warming the water a little just to take the chill off the flour too although I'm looking at the methods which push the dough/ferment temperature up a bit (well - to 26-27C) which may well require reducing the fermentation time. (or possibly the quantity of starter I use, but my aim is for bread that's mildly sour rather than eye wateringly sour (mostly because it sells better)
The routine I use would depend on the bread I'm making the next day - so tomorrow is typically a spelt day - that means one load of spelt dough and one load of wheat to make 6 small loaves (I'll do some Ryes too, but that's a different process) Each spelt & wheat mix is more or less the same - 320g of starter to 800g of flour (I made a typo earlier - meant 320 and not 340) for Friday I'd be making 6 small wheat based loaves and for that I need 640g of starter, so I definitely need to use the mother to make more starter for the dough. So keeping about 500g of starter (500g of wheat and 500g of spelt) makes my life easy, and it means I don't need to worry about it in the afternoon on those days - and, on the rare occasion I'm making 6 wheat loaves and didn't manage to bulk up the mother, I use 320g of wheat and 320g of spelt to give me my 640g of starter for the batch. I've not noticed any real difference using a spelt starter in a wheat based breads - I'd consider using only spelt if it weren't 2x the cost of wheat right now )-: (Or the other way round, but I want to be able to say to people my spelt bread is made just from spelt without any added wheat which I've seen some people do)
-Gordon
that making Wolegrain bread with very little yeast is more complicated than it sounds, seems to come out very different everytime. Im going to stick with 15-20% from now on.
The 100% i made ysterday didnt turn out well, very crumbly and not desirable. Keep trying with Rye, such nice flacor though need to get to know the flour better
or more often called wholemeal over here (and mostly refers to wheat)... I make overnight wholemeal loafs with very little yeast in them - seem to come out OK. I suspect the wheat blends is more important than anything else. I get mine from a local(ish) mill, stoneground from locally grown stuff. 900g flour to 630g water plus 2.5g of organic yeast and 10g salt - mix & knead that, then I leave it in a cool place overnight (9-10 hours), then shape, prove and bake the following morning.
http://unicorn.drogon.net/IMG_20150117_081858.jpg
(I roll the shaped doughs in my own seedy mix before putting them in tins)
it's not sourdough though...
-Gordon
Sounds like a delicious loaf of wholemeal bread. Of course with instant yeast its always less yeast tastes better.
Sourdough on the other hand you get different tastes , so of course there is a threshhold as people were saying depending on the flour/grain used. Its not just a 1 way street , for the most part why it makes it so comelling and intersting.
Thanks for your thoughts, youve got me thiknig of making a brown loaf in a pan pretty soonish